h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thankyou Mugney for your thoughts and for giving me something to think about. Here's a response. I have emotions - they are mine, although they do have a common expression and are recognisable by others. I see others experiencing the same emotions and can empathise with them. I can share emotions with others even though these emotions are purely mine. I can explain them, how I feel and what brought the feelings about. My emotions - and I believe - those of all other human beings are entirely natural. Psychology is a rational science devoted understanding behaviours resulting from emotions in respose to stimuli. No need for supernat stuff at all.
Emotions are (obviously) very powerful. We can easily induce emotions in others - especially by concentrating on the weak and vulnerable (young childrenfor example) by usurping adult powers (which are an evolutionary necessity) - i.e. those which make our innocent children blindly believe what we tell them. This is indeed powerful so when applied to irrational beliefs - potentially very dangerous. With religion it is usually self-perpetuating - generation 1 does it to gen 2 - who do it to gen 3 etc., etc. Religion is somehow supposed to be an answer to the meaning of life.
What is the meaning of life? Does it need to have any meaning or purpose? Why? Of course it doesn't. Who would care if this planet blew up tomorrow? You would be past caring, as would I. Can't think of anyone who would care. Can't think of any reason why any life form not on this planet would know.
When most people realise this, the true meaning of life becomes obvious - it is only what we - as individuals want it to mean. Sorry God - you do not exist. I do. That has meaning. What I do with my life is down to me - my chemistry, my upbringing and all external influences. I owe my life to chance and nothing more. So do you, whether you believe that or not. With that understanding comes a certain humility. People who believe that they are "specially created" for a higher purpose are both kidding themselves as well as being guilty of an amazing arrogance.* Nevertheless people with these beliefs often do great things. Sometimes however they do terrible things. I see no evidence that any beliefs in so-called supernatural things helps mankind in any way whatsoever. In fact I think the converse may very possibly be the case - irrational beliefs lead to irrational behaviours. Usually bad bad news for someone.

If you are still with me - consider this. Humour me by assuming I am right. Assume we are all an accident. As individuals we are a short-term event, at the end of which it is simply - over. Same for the human race. Here today - gone tomorrow. See - did it hurt? I suspect that it didn't. You are alive now. Now is what matters. Get now right and you've done all you can do.
You want me to think. I've thunk. Did that prompt thoughts for you?
Another beer. (see footnote)

* Human beings are trivial and interesting (albeit very interesting)to us alone. Our "special" significance is to us alone. Therefore be nice to us - not some imaginary idol.

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Actually, the opposite is true. Although the systematization of logic requires acuaintance with the world, it is actually a structure of the mind. I don't need any subjective experience of A, B and C to know that if A is to the right of B, and C to the right of B, then C is to the right of A. This is not a product of experience, it's the innate way I handle my experience.

Similarly, it is on the basis of logical thought that the usefulness/reality of the category supernatural is doubted. As explained a few posts ago there is *logically* no way of placing any event into this category.

Noggin

I believe there is a God because there's times when I feel him. Maybe God isn't a sentient being like most who believe in him picture him. White flowing beard, hair and robes... but you can't deny the presence of life- the force of life. God is the force of life. I don't know about his omnipotence or omnipresence as far as mediating the small details of our day to day lives, but He is in everything because he is Life. If you want to give him another name than God, so be it.

Well, another one is: God is Love.

I stand corrected, Apple.... Thanks!

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Life is not "A Thing". It is a result of processes that go on in certain things. By this argument God is an "anthropomorphic personification" - which is pretty much what we naysayers have been saying all along.

Noggin

My point, Bushman, was that experience of God on a personal level is not something that should be disregarded on the basis of it's subjectivity. I say, however weird it may sound, that I have experienced the presence of God. I wouldn't want you to deny the possibility based on lack of proof. Personal belief, OK, but not lack of proof. Proof is not the be all and end all. Faith is a basic human trait. It sounds like you want to disown yours.
I see your point that religion and it's beliefs and dogma can be handed down from one generation to the next, but a persons faith is always subjective. Admittidly it is the faith that a person holds that can divert them to do awful things, but not the religion it self. But to me Faith without religion, or religion without faith is a lost cause.
Anyway, you seem to think a faith is somehow subversive to how we should take life. That it gets in the way. I can't see any way that I can change your mind, but I think you're forcing yourself to miss out on things you wrongly believe to be a dead end.
As for people believing they are specially made and therefore arrogant, you are only half right, We believe you are specially made as well. I would love to reach amazing heights in my life and achieve things that have never been achieved before, but you're right. I'd be kidding myself. But my faith doesn't expect that of me and I don't work for God on commission. What God gives me I use to give back to him. It is my wish to give him what he wants me to give him but I don't intend to grab all i can for him. People who try to take to much in his name do for their own reasons. People and their faith is what can cause problems. From the sounds of it your intention is not to do what the fanatics do and so you renounce faith. But to me that is like turning off your life support machine. without it you become lifeless and you forgo some great experiences you have offered to you. I'm sorry if this sounds like some kind of rant, but I wish you wouldn't disregard this part of life. If you relly have no interest in what I'm talking about then I can't do anything about it, but it seems a shame to me.
Thanks for reading.

gods and other beings exist because they cannot reach enlightenment. their state of being is such that they do not suffer and cannot concieve the feelings and experiences that make being human so difficult. without these negatives you have no positive to aspire too. stuck for eternity in endless, meaningless bliss
as for a god who made everything and is everything, dont make me laugh

Your point Mugney.... seems like you want to make an awful lot of them.
My last response to you - I'll try to answer them all.
Personal experience is never to be taken as sufficient to prove anything. Your experience, I'm afraid - is only that. It is not understanding. Where do you get statements like "Faith is a basic human trait from?" What do you mean by it? Lots of humans do believe blindly in gods and so-called supernatural forces - but the numbers of them do not imply it is inherent in us nor that these beliefs are correct. Galileo was outnumbered by many powerful people who were all one hundred percent wrong. They had blind faith in what they (wrongly) believed.
I do not disown anything - rather I embrace the idea of clear and rational thinking. Scientists (true ones that is) are professional skeptics - and do not have blind faith in anything. Rather their eyes and minds are open. Blind faith is an attribute of the closed minded.
Neither do I miss out on anything. The joys of human life and interaction are in no way diminished by lack of blind faith - rather I believe they are enhanced. Blind faith causes people to kill themselves (and others - e.g 11/9/01 and almost every day in Iraq)in the mistaken belief that dead is not dead. What a waste.
Not all people with faith are fanatics and do such things - but such events are simply an example of the dangerous thing that blind faith can be. It is irrational thinking - and can lead to irrational acts. It is not a part of life I disregard - indeed it is so prevalently a part of life it cannot be disregarded, but it is a mode of thinking I consider myself lucky to be free from. Some of those who are not free from it may be in many cases happy - but this is far from guaranteed. They are however missing out on the chance to use their one time of consciousness with the wonderful brians we have (for a very short time)to learn and understand as much about our universe as possible. It is amazing but does not require a creator!
It isn't a shame - it's great! People on drugs no doubt will tell you the experience is fantastic. Do you use drugs? Blind faith and repeated rote/ritual isn't all that far from being a druggy. I've never experienced either and have no desire to.
Thankyou for reading and maybe thinking.

A good book about gods and people, and the relationship between the two, you might enjoy “American Gods” by Neil Gaimen, who Adams' biography, “Don’t Panic". It has a way that explains the creation of gods that explain what we cannot, and how those gods can become ‘obsolete’ when we move beyond or away from that lack of knowledge or understanding. It does not, however, direct you to say that there is no such thing.

It really does fall on the individual to believe in something, to be passionate about it, and even to, sometimes, regardless of judgement or logic or that nagging in the back of your mind, have faith.

It seems to me that the main objections to the supposition that God exists are based on the battle between faith and science. Indeed, one reply makes this contrast plain, homing in on the arrogance of the believer, who 'knows', whereas the scientist admits he doesn't know. The fact remains that man has sought his creator from when his ability to think began, as far as we can tell. He wants to know whence his tremendous superiority over the rest of creation. Why the special gifts unshared by other creatures: sophistication, love of music, loyalty for its own sake, love & hate. All these make mankind different. But there is a link between faith & science, even the Bible admits that. Genesis chapter one gives the sequence of the beginnings of life as later detected by palaentologists and such. And who gave us the ability to think? And question? Why 'doubting Thomas'? (I prefer to call him 'honest')We should not confound ourselves by allowing the 'Jesus Industry'(established churches) to blight our thinking. Nor should we confine the quest for God to the intellectuals. Indeed, perhaps that is where we should start. Why is it that all classes of intellect show some who believe & some who don't? Perhaps this suggests that faith is not about intellect, but about a further gift, a supernatural gift which we don't yet understand or have long forgotten. Who knows. But what we do know is that the question bugs us, and will continue to do so until we settle it, one way or the other. I find the most puzzling thing about God is that, if he does exist, he gave us the free-will to doubt him. Perhaps the man who claimed to be his son gives us a clue when he says, 'the kingdom id within you.' A good place to start.

hi,

am new here so i hope i'm not mauled for being a bad post.
have not posted ever before so i ask for little mercies.

looks to me that all of us here are at odds to the concept of god.

many people ask the question why, if god is an all powerful, all pervasive entity, why does god let us destroy each other?

in the bible as well as the q'uran, there goes a incident where god is challenged by satan, saying that he(satan) will corrupt god's creations while god gives him the oppurtunity, saying that he would give his creations "free will" to decide who to side with.
(sorry if i am inaccurate, but the actual details bring me to a loss...however this is the gist of it.)

in this, we forget often that while most things in this world are somehow inextricably explained to be the hand of god....we are given the gift of free will...and as such we can choose for everything....
including the denouncement of the concept of god.

incidentally, i too am an atheist....and like douglas adams himself, the concept of religion(s) continues to amaze me.

thank you for reading.

But who said the "GOD" was a man?? Who knows it might be a female or it might be an animal. But if there is a god why would it let bad stuff happen?? But there has somewere you have to find them. . that may be the only way.

hey there,

didnt mean to 'genderize' the 'god', however all through out time it has been a bit biased of the human race to keep 'god' a man.

like douglas adams assumes in 'the salmon of doubt', early caveman must have thought to himself..."this world is mine, it fits me nicely...but what makes is tick? perhaps there is someone infitesmally more powerful than me....hencehe should be made in my image....since i was the most powerful thing around here."

this reasoning and the subsequent analogy is the crux of the matter...either that or i'm trying to save my scalp from the furies.

There are many reasons to believe that God exists.

The existence of the Earth in just the right solar system at exactly the correct distance for the sun to support life. The mathematical odds of this happening just like this by accident cannot be calculated.

The expanse of the Universe is another. It's way to huge and orderly for it to have just happened. The mathematical odds of the universe "just happening" like this cannot be calculated.

If there was a big bang, what caused the big bang?

Since common sense tells me it's impossible for something to come from nothing, there must have been something that always existed, an UNcreated thing, which I call God.

The complexity of biological life is another. Our cells are so complex that the could only have been created as they are now because to remove any one of the systems in them would cause the cells of our bodies to stop functioning, and we would die.



These are just some reasons to believe.

No they are not.

Sure we cant calculate the odds of the solar system being the way it is, but if you had never tossed a single coin you couldnt even calculate odds for that.

We have nothing to compare the universe with so here again calculation of likelyhood is as you say impossible, but and its as a staggeringly simple and important but.

The odds mean NOTHING. Things are as they are.

Statistics say that a coin should land50/50 heads and tails but you try using stats to predict the sequence of heads and tails and you wil get nowhere fast. The coin falls at random each time. Thus the universe is random. Our little planet is in an area that supports life as we know it but a few hundred miles either way and you couldnt predict what would happen. Only what might.

So LIFE the universe and Everthing might not have happened but the odds are immaterial they have and are happening.

I dont car if its the bigG chance or our unverse came out of the bum of a giant beetle. If you want to show gods to exist show me that they are as real as the moon and I'll start worshiping just as son as I can get my little book, robe funny hat, mat, finger symbols or whatever.

one love

exist or not exist>? people who belive and people who not belive...
they said they'd seen angels... some even said they seen ghost... but so far there's no powerful evidence to proof...

my simple thoughts on this topic is that there is to much in the world that is yet to be explained and that the supernatural and the divine fills the gap in human knowledge and explains the unexplainable.

also, if most religions believe there is a God out there, but the call it different names, maybe it isn't us humans who are confused, from my point of view, it seems that God is the confused one.