h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is such an interesting discussion; I thought I would be the one to get it going again. In the question of the existence of God based on physical truths, the question already introduces "facts" that are not exactly part of the solution. The "fact" that a superior being having to conform to the standards of human existence makes the question itself fallible. It is the same as saying, "well, there is no end of the universe, because I can't see it." If there is an end of the universe, what is on the other side of that? These questions cannot be answered in terms that we can perceive in our three dimensional thought process. So why is it so implausible that a higher being can exist outside the realms of our own human condition? If we can imagine an infinite amount of space with no end, and no beginning, or no sides, why not a power that is the same but with intellect. Perhaps God is the Universe (always there, never-ending, never beginning, a unification of the whole.) This would account for about 90 percent of all "religious doctrine, from the Judeo/Muslo/Christian believe of an Omnipresent God to the Hindi/Buddest/Eastern belief of "all things are one in the same (as we are all an intricate part of the universe), all part of one consciousness.
Therefore - In conclusion - God is the same as the Universe; The Universe is the same as God; The Universe exists; Therefore God exists.
{I ran this by the MICE and they thought the answer was at probably at lease 89.987456321% to 1,000,000,000,000,000 as valid as the answer of 42 to the meaning of life, so therefore even more true, ..... ohhh what is that shiney object that just popped up out of nowhere ...Hello Zaphod ,,, long time no see.....}

El Gato

Well, Locke, it was more a sort of knowing - having been to Theosophical meetings, briefly got involved with a 'cult' of the New Age variety (a boyfriend of sorts, don't ask) and occasionally gone along to a Presbyterian Sunday School when I was 8 or 10 (and to be honest, bored out of my skull), I went one day when I was 19 to an Open Brethren church, with a woman I worked with. I listened to everything, took it all in, and suddenly *knew* that was it!
I still had some questions, so I talked to my colleague at great length, and told her I wanted to keep attending. Then about a week later, I made up my mind.
I've still had questions in the years since, but no matter what's happened in my life, I have never doubted my basic commitment. I have come across people who've had a much more direct knowledge of, or contact with God, which I haven't (yet) had, but I *know* and I can't really express how.

sometimes we do *know* things without knowing why we know them
in my case I know there are people on hootoo who could outargue with regard to my belief in atheism and socialism without convincing me so sometimes you do just have to stick by your beliefs

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There are some issues on which I just have to, and do, do that... They are things one of my sons called "unmoveable tree stumps..."

With all due respect Blackberry, that is the summation of all the dumbest things I have ever heard.

If someone presents one with an argument that subeverts your own postion is it really a good idea to stick your fingers in your ears and say, "I know better than you"?

Regardless.

That's the kind of *thinking* that had the vatican punishing people for say the orbits the sun.

Is that the kind of way you *think*?

Is that the way anyone should think, no it is actually the absence of thought and as such it makes humanity nothing more than sheep if we do such things we have minds we ought to use them and not act like stums in the ground.

one love

Too true. people should be open minded but some cant help it, i for one am one of those, no matter how hard i try i cant accept the existance of god. personaly i think the greeks had the right idea: polytheism beliveing in more than one god. its rather like the trinity.

I feel I should say when I was growing up I heard a lot about God and what he was, but more importantly who he was. I used to describe Him as the guy who made everything, who knows everything, etc, etc, etc. Now I describe Him as my friend, my dad in heaven, my saviour, my hope. I have, not just a belief in the being of God as you depict him, but a relationship with the person of God as I, and many others, have encountered. It's difficult to describe but I know God as a person first and formost and my thoughts on his interaction with the universe do have little gaps which I don't know about, but I measure his existance not by his effects but by relationship. So those gaps don't bother me and I can wonder, but not worry, about them.

Cool Mugney, in a way Im pleased for you as a rationlist who believes in freedoms to believe whatever one likes, your idea of religion sounds good to me.

Your bigG certainly exists for you.

However many people's bigG tells them that they have to go round forcing other people to do this and not do that, atleast on certain days anyway.

Which as a rationlist Im cool with too. All I need is for all these people who say their bigG says I must eat this and not that particularly on certain days *prove* that their bigG exists anywhere but in their heads I will gladly follow.

one love

<< many people's bigG tells them that they have to go round forcing other people to do this and not do that, atleast on certain days anyway>>
Not so, Blickybadger! I have let you say that without questioning before, but now I want you to be specific. As far as not doing certain things on certain days, the only thing I can think of, is the stricture on Catholics about not eating meat on Fridays. That was a discipline, not a dogma, was never binding on any non-Catholic, and hasn't existed since Vatican II anyway! So, I have to ask - whatever do you mean?

blicky
if someone can outargue me on a subject but hasn't actually convinced me I'll go away and try to develop better arguements, I won't just adopt their point of view
some people (politicians, barristers) etc are professionals at presenting a case, I'm not, but just because Michael Howard say could outargue me doen't make him correct

I am reminded, Blackberry cat, of a couplet I learned at school.
A man convinced against his will/Is of the same opinion still.
(I think it was some 18th century guy...)

Good quote
Comes up as Laurence J Peter, 20th century author on Google

Thanks, BC. It's a lot more recent than I thought...

The quote dosent really apply to what we are talking about though.

No one is talking about convincing Blackberry against his will. he either accepts the other persons logic or dosent. No force involved.

I was talking about your opinion being subverted by superior argument NOT your free-will to be convinced of what you like. As were you.



As for Della's need for examples of people being forced to live certain ways because of religious constraints there are many examples.

Islamic dress codes.

Sunday trading laws.

Bank holiday serving hours.

Do you want more?

one love

But ar'nt laws of the country just as restrictive as religious ones? sometimes they are intertwined.

I really dont mind that the laws are restrictive. Theyre laws they restrict us, tahts what they 8Do*, but they also protect our individual freedoms.

What I dont like is that some people inspired by what there bigG tells them feel they can dictate laws and worse shape them for the glory/benfit/appeasement/pleasure of said bigG in a way that runs contrary to evidence of what is good for people.

Which is why we have women travelling out of Eire to have terminations. Which is why the taliban stoned adulterous women. Its why parents think they have a right to assault their children for reasons that suit themselves.

one love

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Islamic dress codes - I have no comment, although two Muslim women who were told to remove their Islamic dress in court here in NZ were quite upset, saying that they didn't want to be immodest. In other words, many Muslim women have no objection...

Sunday trading laws and bank holidays... So, you're saying that shop and bank staff should have to work 24/7? That's the way it's becoming here, and believe me, people working in retail are angry, but what can they do?

blicky
you still haven't really answered my point
if someone can outargue me because they have superior debating skills do you really feel that I should change my views
debate is a skill that can be learnt
the one who wins an arguement isn't always right

First let me thank everyone for expressing congraduations on my baby daughter's birth. Her mother (my fiance) and I named her Destiny Angel.
Destiny because my father had 6 kids...3 boys... 3 girls.... Not in that order. I'm the youngest of the 6. The first 3 all had one son a piece. (Bill Cosby was correct. A parent's curse WORKS.) My dad, in his infinite wisdom, decided that since his first three had sons... The last three would have girls. My other 2 sisters have 7 kids between them. Six girls and one boy. And so, I WAS Destined to have my Destiny. My fiance decided on Angel because children are all angels from Heaven.
Now... It's down to business...
Believing in something IS a good thing. We have to. It's instinctual. Even those who claim to believe in NOTHING still believe in something. I fail to see how the human mind is simply 3 dimensional?!? Yours might be. If a person is walking down a path in the woods, he has more options than you'll give him credit for. The direction that he chooses his. Forwards... Backwards... Sideways... Every fork in the road is a decision. But, you've probably overlooked something. Stoppping is a choice. Standing still still changes the outcome of his journey.
Now, about the Greeks. It's not just them. I prefer the Native American Indian's view of multiple Deities. Not revering them, but honoring them. People are so wasteful now adays. So disrespectful. Uncaring. For the first time in my life, I've thought about hunting. Bow hunting to be exact. I don't like the idea of killing another living thing... But I'm not wasteful. I plan on using as much of the animal as I can and playing homage to the spirit of the beast.
Communism is a good thing. Well... Not exactly Communism. Marxism is what I'm striving for. If I had my way, I would create a society based on Marx's writings. Sorry... Got a little of track there.
Too much information to process.
Believe what you want. I do. Believe in what you want. I do. Choose your path in life... Even if it's to stand still. I'm moving forward, but still taking time to stop and smell the roses. Why do you all take life so seriously?!? You're gonna die at the end. And only God knows when!!!

True blackberry, the one who wins an argument isnt always right, but its not what you said and therefore I took you to *mean* what you said not what you are saying now.

However the one who wins an argument may well be right what you implied before was that you would not re-examine your thinking in this position. That is the essence of dogma.

If anyone clearly wins an argument with me I check their facts and mine again if they are right i have to shift my thinking and base them on these new facts not simply say I felt right before and I will carry on regardless.

"Our minds are like parachutes they work best when they are open"

However some people appear to be in terminal freefall.

Hi Della

Sure some women are happy wearing the hijab some are happy wearing the full burkah you are right.

The thing is many are not and even if it were only one person who felt that way would it be right for the majority to enforce this on the few because its what their bigG says is right? This is what happens or do you imagine that the fact that youre example is true makes mine any less true?

"Sunday trading laws and bank holidays... So, you're saying that shop and bank staff should have to work 24/7? That's the way it's becoming here, and believe me, people working in retail are angry, but what can they do?"

Dont be so stupid as to say I am saying thigs I have not said:
"So, you're saying"

If you really want to ask you say:

So are you saying.....?

I'd have thought an "english teacher" should know the difference

No Im not saying that at all but there are many people who want to shop during the weekend especially Sundays. Rather than on anotherr day for their own good reasons. Many, many people.

There are also many, many people who dont mind and even would prefer to work on a Sunday rather than other days of the week because they are studying or they are divorced mums who wnat to work while their children are with their fathers, but they cant because of archaic religiously influenced laws that say we should keep that day for praising the bigG. Bit of a waste if you dont believe in Him aint it.

There are many, many people who would like to drink until *normal* hours on bank holiday sundays but *have * to go home early and workers who need the money have to finish early because of....you guessed it archaic laws.

When it comes to "people working in retail are angry" with working times there are two very simple answers change your hours through your union or change your job. If you are really unhappy in your work and dont do either of these then you are just very stupid or idle and such workers have no one but themselves to be angry with.

one love