h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I've got no idea myself, just trying to get the Politics Forum going. Anyone got any opinions on this?

it's got to be ken clarke. he's normal and in tune with mainstream opinion. the tory party has suffered two election defeats and will not regain power by pursuing even more right wing policies.
it may have become a cliche, but british general elections have always been won from the centre ground. besides, ian duncan whatever his name is will never appeal to the mass of the hardworking, nhs using, state school educated british public.

Ken Clarke - agreed.
He is pro euor, so am I... although... I'm not a Tory... and I think if he becoms leader they could win... so maybe... _not_ Ken Clarke

Seriously tho, hes the best of the bunch IMHO thank fish Porta-loo is out of the race

This post has been removed.

heh heh heh

IS there actually such a thing as an _honest_ Tory???

Just because we've not seen one doesn't mean there are none!

Hmm, it seems my comments about Ken Clarke may have touched a nerve with the moderators

Still, presumably it would be fair and not controversial to point out that Ken Clarke is deputy chairman of British American Tobacco.

Further, it would seem to be fair to say that on July 30th, the Sunday Express reported that customs officials were investigating British American Tobacco's role in cigarette smuggling into the UK.

Can I say that?

Hehe - you're not the first today to be moderated for saying something 'controversial'. Still, I suppose in my case it was justified - the corporation I referred to have a reputation for using bullying libel tactics.

Personally, I find it bizarre that the main opposition party in the UK should be to the right of Labour - especially when the main opposition I come across complains about Labour's move to the right. I can forsee a time when Labour are the main right-wing party, but it's difficult to tell who will oppose them. It's the old problem with the fractured left.

I tend to find party politics cynical in the extreme. You have a ruling party that gained power, not through having better or more popular policies than the other parties, but by stealing the policies of a disgraced and discredited ruling party. I am of the opinion that the current trend towards apathy is not simply a symptom of a disgruntled electorate, but is a deliberate ploy to keep those who will oppose them away from the polls. Outlandish conspiracy theory? maybe...

There's also the point that the Tories are irrelevant because business has abandoned them - and business holds the *real* power. Dipping my toe in the CT pool again, I can foresee Iain D-S becoming leader, simply because as a right-winger, he will help 'pull' the agenda in British politics further to the right. Ken, on the other hand, may scupper his chances with his 'Europhility'. The European Union is enough for free trade, without the problems that may be caused due to the left-leaning continent. We may want to have a welfare state again!

So, it comes down to whether you want the right policies, or are 'charismatic' (which is definately relative in this case). I think Clarke will get the leadership, but will be forced to temper his Europhile tendencies. However, if we do see the Tories gaining ground, will Labour attempt to win back popularity by moving farther to the right, or will they go back to their roots?

Long-windedly,

DG

Yes, thats probably more acceptable. Although you are saying...erm...exactly the same thing..almost...

Universal Declaration of Human Rights...
-Freedom of speech
-Freedom of expression

And also, isnt there fredom of the media/press somewhere? bbc is part of the media... what r they worried about? Theres a disclaimer...

Well, the main problem is with UK libel laws. They place the burden of proof on the defendant, making it guilty until proven innocent. Therefore, in theory, the BBC would have to produce evidence for what I was claiming - so I don't really blame them for hiding my post.

DG

I think I agree with the BBC's (and hence H2G2's) policy on moderation. I mean, who wants the BBC having to pay money to the rich buggers who could afford to sue them? More generally, I think the UK libel laws should be reformed (e.g. eliminated), but I think the BBC is making the best of a bad situation.

Back to the conservative party, I pretty much agree with DG's post above. I don't generally support "conspiracy theories" preferring to see these things in the light of an analysis of institutions. The move to the right in British politics (and elsewhere) can, I think, be more effectively explained as an effect of the dependence of politicians on corporate sponsors, and on a corporate owned mass media.

so, ken clarke works for BAT. and you point is....?

if he worked for a company which sells alcohol (allied domecq, for example) would it make his views more or less acceptable to the PC brigade?

conspiracy theories are all very interesting, but being the cynic's cynic might i suggest that there is no actual evidence and this has all been conjured up and fuelled by the labour party and the left leaning media? they have a vested interest in discrediting moderate conservatives and ensuring that the tory party is led by someone with extreme views on europe, immigration and the future of modern british society.

Left-leaning media? You don't honestly expect me to take that seriously, do you? Which newspapers are you referring to? The Sun? The Daily Mail? The Times? The Telegraph?

Yes, there is The Guardian, The Mirror, and The Indy, but what do they sell in comparison?

Picking jaw off floor,

DG

i even think the mirror is pushing it slightly....

My guess is that IDS will get in because his views are in synch with the average Tory member, who harp back longingly to the Thatcher years (not great for everybody else, but great for them). The average Tory member is aged between 60 and 70 according to different reports, and thus has a very different view from the average man on the street. If they can't halt the flood from their membership, and start appealing to the younger voter, they are dead.

My guess is that in the long run, the threat to Labour won't come from the right, it will come from the left. The street protests are a clear sign that this is the case.

You're probably right, although the recent furore over the Griffin / BNP connection might well make the difference. The question, of course, is whether or not that issue will make a difference to Conservative party members or not, and even if it doesn't whether they might vote strategically for Ken despite preferring IDS.

Interestinf point:

1979 - Tory govenment under Margaret Thatcher is in power. Big Business agenda ie. selling off of UK public assets to foreign and UK business. Tory party remain in power for a decade, despite apparently being hated and turning the country into a hole.

1990 - European Project (run by Big Business) demand European Single Currency. Thatcher, being a British romaticist is against this. Suddenly replaced by more pro-euro John Major

1992 -Hugely unpopular Conservative party somehow win election against still largely anti-business Labour party. Major government still infighting over europe

1994 - New Labour leader Tony Blair. Both pro-business and pro-europe

1997 - Labour Party win by landslide. Tory party, who were in power for over a decade somehow now minority party and unelectable

2001 - Tory party under anti-europe William Hague is again flattened in the election, despite Blair's government becoming increasingly unpopular

Anyone see something in this or is it just me?

... the UK is being controlled by a pro-euro conspiracy?

what a load of old tosh, zagreb.

instead of spouting a tirade of tired arguments based on krypto Marxist bunkum why not tell us what you really believe and why? or is this too positive for you?

you mention "big business" and the "big business agenda". how many times do you see representatives of different business communities disagreeing in the media? think of the IOD and the CBI. fill a football stadium with importers, exporters, manufacturers, bankers, industrialists, venture capitalists and dot com entrepreneurs. would they agree on anything (especially europe)? i think not.

anyway, back to the point of this discussion - IDS has proved himself to be inexperienced, naive and surrounded by the wrong kind of people in the recent expulsion of edgar griffin.

tony blair needs a good kicking and ken clarke is the man to do it.

it would be nice to see some good fiery debates in the commons....

although, i wouldnt be 100% happy if the tories won again... even though I am pro-euro and clarke seems to be font of it also