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Warriors - albeit very much as against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Started conversation Aug 11, 2014
150 years ago the alliance of Prussia and Austria seized one third of the kingdom of Denmark. Since then the population of this occupied territory was officially recognized as Prussians (Germans).
So when WWI broke out even the men who still deep in their hearts felt like Danes had to desert their homesteads - and lose them forever. Or fight for the Kaiser and keep the chance of keeping the farms their families had owned forever...
Numbers do not mean much if you are in a war. Not even if you are fighting for a cause that isn't yours. A casualty is a casualty. But can you blame the parents, wives and children for asking "why did he have to be killed or wounded in a war that was not ours?"
Numbers don't mean much to a single family. But more than four thousand Danish men lost their lives in the trenches on the western frontier, at sea, in Africa and wherever this absurd war was being fought.
Two years after the war the socalled winners of said war held a referendum in the areas occupied since the Prussians and the Austrians won the war in 1864. The northern third was returned to Denmark, but the rest was not.
It gets worse:
When Hitler came to power and waged war on the world, men from the Danish minority south of the border to Denmark once more had to fight for a cause that most definitely was not theirs. Desertion was an option again, of course - as it had been in WWI - but this time around you risked not only your homestead, but your life AND the lives of your family...
It gets worse:
During and after the war a number of Danes fighting on the eastern front were captured by the Russians. When they told who they were, where they came from and how they had been forced to fight for the German side, they were not believed. Stalin did not trust them - and had no time for them. An unknown number vanished somewhere behind the iron curtain...
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 11, 2014
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant Posted Aug 12, 2014
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Malabarista - now with added pony Posted Aug 12, 2014
Hmmm, the problem I have with this is: what makes you think the Germans wanted to fight?
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 12, 2014
History, Mala.
My late granduncle (my maternal grandfathers older brother) went proudly into WWI as a German soldier (probably singing "Denn Wir Fahren gegen Engelland") like so many other misguided young Germans. But he was a "real German". Not a Dane turned German by invasion...
My late father-in-law who was equally misguided and (at least for some time) believed in the good cause he was fighting for in WWII was also a "real German".
Of course I know a lot of Germans did not want to fight, but a big part of the insanity that was WWI is the fact that most young men throughout Europe actually wanted to fight.
The Danes however really had nothing to fight for - Denmark was neutral during WWI - yet the Danes south of the border were forced to fight on the German side...
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant Posted Aug 12, 2014
Borders are such an inconvenient thing when you're next to powerful states who want your territory . How many times has Belgium gotten trampled by Germans on their way to sack France? Poland has had cause to regret being between Germany and Russia. Switzerland was smart when it built the Alps. Neighboring countries were not about to climb all those mountains to conquer the Swiss -- except maybe for Austria, which had mountains of their own to climb, so they didn't seem like such a hindrance ..
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
ITIWBS Posted Aug 12, 2014
The Danish Virgin Islands were ceded to the USA in 1917 under the Treaty of the Danish West Indies in order to prevent the islands from being seized by the Germans and used for advanced bases for U-boat operations.
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant Posted Aug 12, 2014
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Baron Grim Posted Aug 13, 2014
They still managed to sink a ship off of Galveston.
http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Amazing-photos-detail-spectacular-WWII-wreck-in-5616006.php
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Baron Grim Posted Aug 13, 2014
Correction, several ships and this one was sunk off of New Orleans.
Galveston still has remnants of the large gun bunkers they used as a shore defense. The guns had a range of 20 miles. Also, just a ways inland are the four corners of a blimp base which was used for hunting U-boats.
Now: http://www.texasescapes.com/TexasGulfCoastTowns/HitchcockTexas/HitchcockTexasWWIIBlimpNavalAirBase900WilliamHolmes1.jpg
Then: http://www.airfields-freeman.com/TX/Hitchcock_TX_undated_hgr.jpg
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Florida Sailor All is well with the world Posted Aug 13, 2014
At the outbreak of World War II the Danish Sailing ship 'Danmark' was transferred to US control to prevent her from falling into German hands. https://www.martec.nu/en/trainingship-danmark/the-ship/history.aspx
She was sailed as a US training ship until she was replaced by the US Coast Guard Cutter 'Eagle' that had been seized as a prize of war http://www.cga.edu/eagle.aspx?id=688
Thank you, for more information you might find A87784320 Interesting.
F S
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 13, 2014
The Virgin Islands were sold to the US for 25 million dollars. The alternative was selling them to the Germans - but after losing to the Prussians and Austrians in 1864 we weren't happy with that alternative.
The Danish history of the Virgin Islands is a dark one by the way. Not something to be proud of. We initially took these islands to benefit from the triangular trade: We sold arms to Africa in exchange for slaves who were then exploited in the sugar plantations. The outcome - sugar and rum - was then transported back to Denmark.
It's a comfort that Denmark was one of the first nations to abolish slavery. The first restrictions were introduced as early as 1792 and 1848 the last slaves were freed.
(To be continued)
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 13, 2014
As earlier indicated the bonds between Denmark and the US are and have always been remarkable. So much that one Danish author called Denmark the 51st state. He compared Denmark to a number of European nations and made some good points about how much more Denmark is alike to the US than any other European nation. (I seem to remember that Sweden ranked #2 in that comparison.)
Florida Sailor has already mentioned how the training ship Denmark was made available for the United States Navy while the country was occupied by Germany.
But in addition, the world's largest shipping company, Danish Maersk, has made its enormous fleet available both during WWII and the two golf wars. Not for free, mind you, A.P. Møller and his son Mærsk Mc-Kinney Møller were skilled business men who created a - by Danish standards - gargantuan corporate empire.
Most notable though are all the Danish sailors suddenly cut off from their homeland during the occupation. Each and everyone decided to help out the way they knew best: By continue to sail people and goods despite the enormous risk of being killed by German submarines or air attacks. More than 240 Danish vessels and some 6,000 men joined the allied forces. More than 2.000 sailors and fishermen were killed.
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant Posted Aug 14, 2014
I've always had a good feeling about Denmark and the Danish people. I'm sorry about the triangle trade during the era of slavery. Very few of us are completely innocent. My father's male ancestors in Nova Scotia were often captains on ships. Did any of the ships carry slaves? I'm not sure I want to know! That being the case, I'm not about to cast aspersions at the Danish involvement in the Virgin Islands. The most any of us can is face the future with a hope of not repeating the mistakes of our predecessors.
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Florida Sailor All is well with the world Posted Aug 14, 2014
pierce;
you make me think about my next entry for Peer Review - 'The Merchant Marine in World War II' They made several sacrifices of their lives to keep the UK supplied with food and the implements of war. I can vaguely remember a few films 'The Long Voyage Home' with John Wayne, and a few others I can't think of by name.
They are probably the unsung heroes of the war. I remember an amusing incident of the service in the Pacific - When a ship crossed the international Date Line the crew were given an extra day's pay, when they returned it was subtracted. If you managed to get your ship sunk on the other side of the line you were entitled to keep the extra pay, even though you had lost everything that was on the ship
I might be interested in your comments on this subject.
F S
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Florida Sailor All is well with the world Posted Aug 14, 2014
pierce;
You also raise a point I have often wondered about, the ship name 'Denmark' makes perfect sense, however the name on her stern is clearly is spelled 'Danmark' I have often wondered why, and assumed it was a part of the Danish language.
Is it a part of tense or something else? look at my link, you will have to paste it into your browser if you are like me.
F S
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 14, 2014
Florida Sailor;
Last things first: "Danmark" is the official Danish name for both the training ship and the country
Throughout the world the name is spelled and pronounced differently: Dänemark in German, Danemark or Danemarque in France, Dinamarca in Spanish, Portoguese and Italian, Tanska in Finnish and so on.
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 14, 2014
Florida Sailor;
My late great-uncle (maternal grandmother's brother) sailed in the merchant marine during WWII. His ship was sunk twice. Once in the Mediterranean Sea, the second time in the Arctic Ocean (which we call Ishavet = The Ice Sea, a much more precise description. In particular if you asked him!)
After the first incident he walked all the way from Italy to his home a stone's throw from the border to Denmark. He told med about walking from monastery to monastery where merciful monks would serve "bread soup". Every time. Every monastery. Bread soup. He never tasted it again...
The second time was Christmas Day in The Ice Sea. - We swam the best we could and I was lucky enough to be saved by another ship. But for every stroke I could feel how my limbs grew colder - and slower...
See if you can get your hands on the novel "We, The Drowned" by Danish multi-artist Carsten Jensen. It is highly recommendable and you will understand why it has been translated into a multitude of languages (20 so far I believe) and has received fabulous reviews. Read more about it here:
http://carstenjensenhjemmeside.dk/en/books/3/sections/3
It is only the last parts of the book that tell the dramatic story of merchant sailing in WWII but the whole book is a good read for anyone! (I'm pretty sure you will love it too, paulh!)
Bonus information: The center of this novel is Marstal on the tiny island Ærø (Aeroe) where I spent every summer in my youth. Read about Marstal here:
http://carstenjensenhjemmeside.dk/en/books/1
I don't know for sure, but I have most likely played with Carsten Jensen as a boy, we are of similar age. I can't be sure, as I said, but the town is very small and there were only so many boys around, so...
I also had my first assignment as a sailor on the good ship "Ulina" of Marstal.
Anyway, I'll stop ranting now
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant Posted Aug 14, 2014
Another book about downed ships in WWII is "All the Dead Sailors," about the sinking of the Indianapolis. The U.S. Navy didn't want to draw attention to the ship's real purpose, so they delayed rescuing the sailors [800 at first, of which about five hundred drowned because of the delay]. It still boggles my mind to imagine 300 people staying afloat unaided for so long.
Warriors - albeit very much against their will
Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ Posted Aug 14, 2014
I shall add that to my list, paulh - but promise yourself to read "We, The Drowned". You won't regret it!
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Warriors - albeit very much as against their will
- 1: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 11, 2014)
- 2: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 11, 2014)
- 3: paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant (Aug 12, 2014)
- 4: Malabarista - now with added pony (Aug 12, 2014)
- 5: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 12, 2014)
- 6: paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant (Aug 12, 2014)
- 7: ITIWBS (Aug 12, 2014)
- 8: paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant (Aug 12, 2014)
- 9: Baron Grim (Aug 13, 2014)
- 10: Baron Grim (Aug 13, 2014)
- 11: Florida Sailor All is well with the world (Aug 13, 2014)
- 12: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 13, 2014)
- 13: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 13, 2014)
- 14: paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant (Aug 14, 2014)
- 15: Florida Sailor All is well with the world (Aug 14, 2014)
- 16: Florida Sailor All is well with the world (Aug 14, 2014)
- 17: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 14, 2014)
- 18: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 14, 2014)
- 19: paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant (Aug 14, 2014)
- 20: Pierre de la Mer ~ sometimes slightly worried but never panicking ~ (Aug 14, 2014)
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