A Conversation for Editorial Feedback
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
anhaga Started conversation Aug 1, 2003
There is (to my mind) a rather glaring gap in this entry, and a rather glaring mistake in the opening sentence: "The US Constitution is the physical blueprint of the first true democracy since Athens fell to Alexander the Great."
The glaring gap is the absence of any mention of the Six Nations Confederacy's contribution to the US Constitution. The Glaring error is the implicit suggestion that the participatory democracy of the Six Nations and the parliamentary democracy of Iceland, both far older than the United States, either aren't "true" democracies or simply don't exist.
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
http://www.travelnet.is/about/history.htm#930 Establishment of the Althing
I don't know what to do about these errors. Frankly, I'm scared to imagine bringing them up to Blatherskite. But, really, the opening sentence is pretty inflamatory to at least two nations (if you count the Six Nations as one nation, which I do). And leaving the Six Nations' contribution out of the entry is just continuing a white, colonial revision of history which has marginalized so many for so long.
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... Posted Aug 1, 2003
I would like to add a few points, as well...
"On June 11, 1776 while the question of independence was being debated, the visiting Iroquois chiefs were formally invited into the meeting hall of the Continental Congress. There a speech was delivered, in which they were addressed as "Brothers" and told of the delegates' wish that the "friendship" between them would "continue as long as the sun shall shine" and the "waters run." The speech also expressed the hope that the new Americans and the Iroquois act "as one people, and have but one heart."[18] After this speech, an Onondaga chief requested permission to give Hancock an Indian name. The Congress graciously consented, and so the president was renamed "Karanduawn, or the Great Tree." With the Iroquois chiefs inside the halls of Congress on the eve of American Independence, the impact of Iroquois ideas on the founders is unmistakable. History is indebted to Charles Thomson, an adopted Delaware, whose knowledge of and respect for American Indians is reflected in the attention that he gave to this ceremony in the records of the Continental Congress."
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
1 There is a legend that accompanies the 13 arrows. On July 4th, 1744, the great Iroquois chief Gunasedago met with colonists in what is now Lancaster, Pennsylvania. There, he represented the interests of his people in the Six Nation Confederacy and their desire to live in harmony with the colonists. Minutes were taken from this meeting to Philadelphia to be printed. The owner of the printshop was Benjamin Franklin. While setting the type he was greatly impressed by the reported wisdom of the Native Americans and their system of self-government. He chose to meet with them directly.
Regarding the bundle of 13 arrows on the Great Seal of the United States and on the American dollar bill...
"Upon arriving, Franklin was presented with a gift by the chief. It was a single arrow. While Franklin pondered its meaning and significance, the chief snatched it back, cracked it over his knee, and handed the broken arrow back to his startled guest. Suddenly, the chief knocked it from Franklin's hand, reached behind himself, and presented 13 arrows. Again, while Franklin pondered the meaning and significance of this gift, the chief snatched them back and cracked them over his knee. This time the arrows remained unbroken. The chief presented Franklin with these 13 unbroken arrows (seen in the left talon of the eagle) indicating that if the 13 colonies were united, they would be less likely to be broken by the British. Gunasedago had reinacted the same symbolic gesture that Deganawidah and Hiawatha used to establish the Iroquois Confederacy some time before the coming of Columbus to the New World."
http://www.geocities.com/lodge34/torrione_ldg.One_Dollar.html
The Constitution of the Five Nations, or The Great Law: http://www.constitution.org/cons/iroquois.htm
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/iroquois.html
The Founding Documents (of the American Constitution): http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm
http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... Posted Aug 1, 2003
I don't mind pointing out the "glaring omission"...
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... Posted Aug 1, 2003
... and so she did...
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
xyroth Posted Aug 2, 2003
It might be worth adding that you can download a copy of the U.S. constitution from project guttenberg.
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
Smij - Formerly Jimster Posted Aug 4, 2003
Okay, with regard to the potentially offensive sleight against other, older democracies, I've fudged that first line. A little less impactful, but also less offensive.
As for the omission, well that's a little more complicated. I'm unsure about which information in the above thread is suggested for the update as there seems to be a lot there and it's not really clear what's intended to go where.
If one of you would like to point out the paragraph concerned (marking from... and to... points), and offer a replacement paragraph, then I'll willingly replace/add where necessary. But if it's any more complicated than that, the Update Headquarters (A496451) is the place to go.
Jimster
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... Posted Aug 4, 2003
Well, since your are the reasearcher, it would be up to you to decide what information is pertinent to include.
The fact is that there is evidence to conclude that the Constitution of the United States included, as part of it source, the Great Law, and the the Six Nation Confederacy.
It is fairly well substantiated, from legal and Constitutional sources, that this is an establtished fact.
I think it would be remiss not to mention this in your article. I can only suggest this. I gave you a few sources to support my case. What you do with it, is up to you.
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
anhaga Posted Aug 5, 2003
Jimster:
Thanks for the change, but the Six Nations Confederacy is also in the "New World", so the change kind of makes the error more complicated and seems to single the Six Nations out for exclusion more specifically. This is a thorny one.
Really, there isn't much of a way that the U. S. was a first democracy of any kind. It has been very influential on some democracies that followed after it, but it has also been influenced by other democracies that preceded it (Six Nations, Britain's Parliament) and by monarchies (the Electoral College was meant to be a way of distancing the President from the rabble, sort of a way of electing nobles to elect a king).
From what I can imagine, something like "The US Constitution is the physical blueprint of the first democracy of the European 'Enlightenment'." might work. This sets things up for the social contract and Rousseau bit. It also allows room for Iceland and the Six Nations (and any other examples that might crop up).
I've posted a suggestion to Mudhooks that she come up with something about the Six Nations if she'd like.
A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... Posted Aug 5, 2003
As Anhaga pointed out to me, I didn't fully understand the editing process. I will sit down and have a shufty throught the article and my references and see what I can come up with. Since this Anhaga is probably as (rather, probably more) cultural awareness of and identification with the Confederacy, I will seek some input from him.
Thanks....
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A525278 - The Constitution of the United States of America
- 1: anhaga (Aug 1, 2003)
- 2: Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... (Aug 1, 2003)
- 3: Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... (Aug 1, 2003)
- 4: Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... (Aug 1, 2003)
- 5: xyroth (Aug 2, 2003)
- 6: Smij - Formerly Jimster (Aug 4, 2003)
- 7: Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... (Aug 4, 2003)
- 8: anhaga (Aug 5, 2003)
- 9: Mudhooks: ,,, busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest... (Aug 5, 2003)
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