h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

According to the Mormon position, the very early Fathers would have taught Mormon doctrines that were eventually abandoned by later "apostate" Fathers. However, no early Church Father ever taught peculiarly Mormon doctrines such as polygamy,baptism for the dead, the multiplicity of gods, or celestial marriage. There is no evidence at all that the primitive Church before the supposed apostasy was Mormon.

Another interesting FACT: The Canon of the Bible (or list of inspired books) was officially determined by the Catholic Church around the year 400AD. The Mormons accept, as a matter of faith, the canon of the New Testament exactly as the Catholic Church defined it. Yet this authoritative determination of the canon took place 200 years after the Catholic Church, according to the Mormons, became totally corrupted and unable to proclaim God's truth with certainty.

Why is it that history books mention all the major splits in Church history-Arianism,Orthodoxy,and Protestantism-yet completely fail to mention anything about a total apostasy? All the large schisms are mentioned: why is ther no mention of the largest schism of all"? Surely someone must have noticed: the Church's enemies, pagan historians, or non-apostatizing Christians. At the very least, early Christians trying to stay faithful to the original Mormon teachings of the Apostolic Church would have raised a massive outcry as the rest of the Christian world slipped into apostasy.Please prove the claim. Give specific facts about the "great apostasy", when and where it began, who started it and who defended against it.

TAB:

The very early Fathers would have taught Christian doctrines (Teachings of Christ). Mormons believe that our doctrines are those of Christ.

The teachings of the bible have been translated and edited many times over the centuries. Mormons believe that the many iterations of these translations have allowed interpretations of man to skew some of the teachings of the Old and New Testaments. Some parts were edited or eliminated completely. If some teachings were eliminated by apostate religious leaders who disagreed with them, we would never know that, would we? It happened a number of centuries ago.

The Mormon Church does not accept the Canon of the Bible exactly as defined by the Catholic Church. We use the King James translation of the bible because we believe it is more accurate than any of the many other translations. Were an exact rendering of ancient scripture available today, which did not go through a translation process at the hands of uninspired men, we would accept that as the exact gospel of Christ. That is not how it played out, however.

Within the first two centuries after Christ's death, schisms (to use your word) developed among his followers. I can't tell you why you don't find that in your history books. I suspect that people outside of the Christian followers didn't pay that much attention to them, much less record their history in great detail. I can't say whether the Christians themselves recorded the events in great detail. I would suspect they did, but I can't tell you where their writings ended up. There were probably a number of societies during that time that recorded their histories, though that doesn't guarantee that their writings ended up in history books.

The church leaders of the time, the apostles appointed by Christ, then those appointed after his death to replace apostles who died, spread out to preach Christ's gospel. They had some success, but also met with much opposition. Many of the apostles were martyred.

Members of the church also were divided regarding the meaning of some of Christ's teachings. Some thought that there was no need to have authority that could be traced back to Christ himself, through a succession of the laying on of hands. Eventually, the remaining faithful Christians were killed off. There were splinter groups that survived. These are the people who Constantine used to create the Catholic Church, claiming through them a link directly back to Christ's original church.

Your desire to know exactly who started the apostacy and what was the reaction of those who remained true to Christ's teachings is understandable. Unfortunately, if these things were recorded, they were either lost or destroyed through the centuries that followed. Again, there are a lot of things we don't know about that happened during this time, not just in Israel, Rome, and Greece, but all over the world.

The proof you desire is something you can attain through faith, study and prayer. You will never attain a perfect proof through history. It is incomplete and written by imperfect humans. If you truly desire understanding, ask of Him who knows all things. If He tells you that it isn't true, then you can rest assured that He will not mislead you. But you must ask with faith, and with the commitment that if you receive an answer, you will follow that answer.

Be careful, though, because the answer may require that you change your life and your views of what life is all about. If you are not prepared to accept that type of answer, you aren't ready to ask yet.

This is your statement:
> Within the first two centuries after Christ's death, schisms (to use your word) developed among his followers<
ANSWER: No schism occured in the first 2 centuries.

Tarheel Dude: The New testament is very clear that Christ left a Church that would last until the end of time, and would always faithfully teach the Gospel. The following Bible verses unmistakable prove this point. Mt 7:24-27 KVJ "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unot a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house: and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And everyone that heareth these sayins of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house: and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Is Jesus like the wise man who built His house (the Church) on rock, or like the foolish man who built his house on sand? without doubt, Jesus is like the wise man in the parable; what He builds will not collapse.
Mt 16:13-18: When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Phillipi, he asked his disciples, saying, 'Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?' And they said, 'Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets' He saith unto them, 'But whom say ye that I am?' And Simon Peter answered and said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'. And Jesus answered and said unto him, 'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'" (KJV)

Like the wise man in the parable, Jesus explicitly builds His house,His Church, on a rock. Our Lord reinforces the permanence of what He has built by promising that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against His Church.IF THE CHURCH DESAPPEARED, EVEN FOR A SHORT TIME, THE GATES OF HELL WOULD HAVE PREVAILED AGAINST IT, THUS MAKING JESUS A LIAR.

TAB:

You make some interesting points.

Help me out with the logic, though. Are you saying that Christ's church never disappeared from the earth after He established it? If so, then it would seem to me that you support the Catholic claim that they have a direct link back to Christ's church. All of the Protestant religions broke off from (or protested) existing Christian churches.

Were Christ's original church to have remained on the earth continuosly, there would have been no need to break off from it, for it would have taught the absolute truth as presented by Christ.

Unless you believe the Catholic teachings, then the original church of Christ was somehow, sometime lost. Is that not how you account for the splintering of modern-day Christianity? Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are diametrically opposed to one another?

Can God the Father reveal to us personally which church is true?

TAB:

You make some interesting points.

Help me out with the logic, though. Are you saying that Christ's church never disappeared from the earth after He established it? If so, then it would seem to me that you support the Catholic claim that they have a direct link back to Christ's church. All of the Protestant religions broke off from (or protested) existing Christian churches.

Were Christ's original church to have remained on the earth continuosly, there would have been no need to break off from it, for it would have taught the absolute truth as presented by Christ.

Unless you believe the Catholic teachings, then the original church of Christ was somehow, sometime lost. Is that not how you account for the splintering of modern-day Christianity? Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are diametrically opposed to one another?

Can God the Father reveal to us personally which church is true?

As to Christ and building a house upon the rock...I read that be a discussion of individuals and where they place their faith. If I as an individual place my faith in Christ, I am building my house upon the rock. If, on the other hand, I place my faith in my own ability to understand things, with my finite mind and limited ability to understand eternal principles, I am building my house on the sand. I don't equate that passage to Christ and his church.

I also don't view the loss of Christ's authority from the earth for a limited time as the "gates of Hell prevailing against it." Rather, I view that as part of the process that was prophesied since ancient days. The kingdom of God shall prevail. If the kingdom of God prevails, then the gates of Hell shall not.

TAB:

You make some interesting points.

Help me out with the logic, though. Are you saying that Christ's church never disappeared from the earth after He established it? If so, then it would seem to me that you support the Catholic claim that they have a direct link back to Christ's church. All of the Protestant religions broke off from (or protested) existing Christian churches.

Were Christ's original church to have remained on the earth continuosly, there would have been no need to break off from it, for it would have taught the absolute truth as presented by Christ.

Unless you believe the Catholic teachings, then the original church of Christ was somehow, sometime lost. Is that not how you account for the splintering of modern-day Christianity? Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are diametrically opposed to one another?

Can God the Father reveal to us personally which church is true?

As to Christ and building a house upon the rock...I read that be a discussion of individuals and where they place their faith. If I as an individual place my faith in Christ, I am building my house upon the rock. If, on the other hand, I place my faith in my own ability to understand things, with my finite mind and limited ability to understand eternal principles, I am building my house on the sand. I don't equate that passage to Christ and his church.

I also don't view the loss of Christ's authority from the earth for a limited time as the "gates of Hell prevailing against it." Rather, I view that as part of the process that was prophesied since ancient days. The kingdom of God shall prevail. If the kingdom of God prevails, then the gates of Hell shall not.

TAB:

You make some interesting points.

Help me out with the logic, though. Are you saying that Christ's church never disappeared from the earth after He established it? If so, then it would seem to me that you support the Catholic claim that they have a direct link back to Christ's church. All of the Protestant religions broke off from (or protested) existing Christian churches.

Were Christ's original church to have remained on the earth continuosly, there would have been no need to break off from it, for it would have taught the absolute truth as presented by Christ.

Unless you believe the Catholic teachings, then the original church of Christ was somehow, sometime lost. Is that not how you account for the splintering of modern-day Christianity? Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are diametrically opposed to one another?

Can God the Father reveal to us personally which church is true?

As to Christ and building a house upon the rock...I read that be a discussion of individuals and where they place their faith. If I as an individual place my faith in Christ, I am building my house upon the rock. If, on the other hand, I place my faith in my own ability to understand things, with my finite mind and limited ability to understand eternal principles, I am building my house on the sand. I don't equate that passage to Christ and his church.

I also don't view the loss of Christ's authority from the earth for a limited time as the "gates of Hell prevailing against it." Rather, I view that as part of the process that was prophesied since ancient days. The kingdom of God shall prevail. If the kingdom of God prevails, then the gates of Hell shall not.

TAB:

Thanks. You make some interesting points.

Help me out with the logic, though. Are you saying that Christ's church never disappeared from the earth after He established it? If so, then it would seem to me that you support the Catholic claim that they have a direct link back to Christ's church. All of the Protestant religions broke off from (or protested) existing Christian churches.

Were Christ's original church to have remained on the earth continuosly, there would have been no need to break off from it, for it would have taught the absolute truth as presented by Christ. If a church did break off from remnant of Christ's true church, it could not improve upon absolute truth, and must therefore be less perfect than Christ's original church. Is my logic flawed?

Unless you believe the Catholic teachings, then the original church of Christ was somehow, sometime lost. Is that not how you account for the splintering of modern-day Christianity? Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are diametrically opposed to one another?

Can God the Father reveal to us personally which church is true?

As to Christ and building a house upon the rock...I read that be a discussion of individuals and where they place their faith. If I as an individual place my faith in Christ, I am building my house upon the rock. If, on the other hand, I place my faith in my own ability to understand things, with my finite mind and limited ability to understand eternal principles, I am building my house on the sand. I don't equate that passage to Christ and his church.

I also don't view the loss of Christ's authority from the earth for a limited time as the "gates of Hell prevailing against it." Rather, I view that as part of the process that was prophesied since ancient days. The kingdom of God shall prevail. If the kingdom of God prevails, then the gates of Hell shall not.

Tarheel Dude

I am obviously incompetent and cannot tell when my reply has posted.

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Tarheel Dude

I am obviously incompetent, and cannot tell when my reply has posted.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Tarheel Dude

Hiya!
I don't know much about Mormons - which maybe actually be quite a surprise to some when they find out my Best Friend is a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Lattter Day Saints. But then they might understand why we don't talk about religion much when they find out that our other best friend (the 3 of us are almost inseperable) is a Jehovah Witness. We most definietely are the weirdest friendship group on the Playground; One Mormon, one Jehovah Witness and me, a girl who doesn't go to church and doesn't exactly have a religion. Yet we manage to get along fine.
I do have a query though...
My best friend's family doesn't have a year's supply of food etc as far as I know, yet they do have something called a 3-day survival pack, or something like that. Can you tell me a little more about this pls?

I'm guessing the majority of people posting here are from America, right? After all, Mormonism IS an American religion, isn't it? The reason I ask is because I live in Australia, and the Branch (that's the right one, isn't it? Because we live in the mission/country) that my friend goes to has quite a few members.

>Help me out with the logic, though. Are you saying that Christ's church never disappeared from the earth after He established it? If so, then it would seem to me that you support the Catholic claim that they have a direct link back to Christ's church. All of the Protestant religions broke off from (or protested) existing Christian churches.<

Answer: I am saying exactly that Christ's Church never disappeared form the earth after He established it. Yes there was a schism in the early 1500's that broke away from the Catholic Church but the Catholic Church never disappeared. You see Satan is very active. Do you think Satan wants you or anyone in the Protestant religions to actually receive the Body,Blood,Soul and divinity of Jesus.Not 1 Protestant Church is united with Doctrines that Jesus taught. They all have their own theories. The Holy Spirt is NOT the author of this confusion.

>Were Christ's original church to have remained on the earth continuosly, there would have been no need to break off from it, for it would have taught the absolute truth as presented by Christ.<

Answer: It still does teach the absolute truth.Just because people break away from it, it doesn't mean that the Church disappeared. How in the world did you ever think it stop existing? Just curious,I hope you don't think that I was asking to be mean but I've always wondered why people think this.

>Unless you believe the Catholic teachings, then the original church of Christ was somehow, sometime lost. Is that not how you account for the splintering of modern-day Christianity? Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are diametrically opposed to one another?<

Answer: Yes I believe in the Catholic teaching. The orginal Church,The Catholic Church was never lost.It has always been visible. For your next question, Why do so many Christian churches teach doctrines that are opposed on one another? Good question, There is now over 30,000 different protestant denomination,each insisting its interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. The resulting divisions have caused untold confusion among millions of sincere but misled Christians. Just open up the Yellow pages of your telephone book and see how many different denominations are listed, each claiming to go by the "Bible alone" but no two of them agreeing on exactly what the Bible means. The Holy Spirit cannot be the author of this confusion (1 Cor.14.33)By the Way: this division is from the 1500's reformation.

Can God the Father reveal to us personally which church is true?

Answer: Absolutly, There is a prayer and I don't know it off the top of my head.I will try to find it for you though. Even so if you truly want to know just ask like you did. That was beautiful and the answer comes in three's and it does not necessarily come from within. God gives you the answer in ways that are just for you.

>As to Christ and building a house upon the rock...I read that be a discussion of individuals and where they place their faith. If I as an individual place my faith in Christ, I am building my house upon the rock.
Answer:Jesus is clearly setting up his Church.Mt 16:18-19 not an individual

If, on the other hand, I place my faith in my own ability to understand things, with my finite mind and limited ability to understand eternal principles,
Answer: Exactly, that is why we have so many splintering Protestant denominations. That is why Jesus left a Church. Try to look up these passages. Jn10:16-there shall be one fold and one shepherd.Eph 4:3-6 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father.1Cor1:10-I urge you that there be no divisions among you. Last question What is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth? Think about it then look up 1Tim 3:15.

>I am building my house on the sand. I don't equate that passage to Christ and his church.<
answer: Because Jesus would not build his Church on sand. It would collapse if he did.


>I also don't view the loss of Christ's authority from the earth for a limited time as the "gates of Hell prevailing against it." Rather, I view that as part of the process that was prophesied since ancient days. The kingdom of God shall prevail. If the kingdom of God prevails, then the gates of Hell shall not.<

In this passage it is referring to the Perpetual Church.Mt 16:18.Why take it any different than what it is saying." The gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church. Maybe your asking yourself "What Church?"

Funny!! It's okay

>My best friend's family doesn't have a year's supply of food etc as far as I know, yet they do have something called a 3-day survival pack, or something like that. Can you tell me a little more about this pls?<

Answer: I don't have a year's supply of food either.I have about a weeks worth (if that) My children would love it if I did. I am sorry I am making a little humor here.

I think you need a little bit of background. The Jehovah's Witnesses were founded in 1872 by Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916) There is no record of their religion before this time, contrary to claims Jehovah's Witnesses often make. The Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) are simply one of the many religions that sprang up in the USA during the 1800's a time of rugged individualism and experimentation in religion.
This is the three main sources of JW doctrine:

1) Protestantism. Since Charles Russell came from a Protestant backgound (Congregationalism), it is not surprising that a great many JW beliefs are Protestant. For example, they reject the Eucharist, purgatory, confession, and the intercession of the saints. The early Christian Church was Catholic and accepted all these doctrines. These beliefs were not rejected until the Protestant Reformation. JWs continue these Protestant errors.
2) Adventism. Adventism refers to a religious movement, very strong in the 1800's which was preoccupied with the date of the SECOND COMING. The Mormons (founded in 1830), the Seventh Day Adventists(founded in 1831), and the JWs all began as Adventist religions. The founders of these three religions all claimed to know the exact date of the Second Coming. All three religions were descredited when their prophecies failed to come true.

The early Mormon Church denied that the Holy Spirit is a person (DOCTRINES AND COVENANTS,1835 edition). The JWs borrowed this teaching unchanged. The early Mormon Church also taught that Michael the Archangel was actually Adam (Brigham Young, JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES). The JWs put a slightly different spin on this teaching and said that Michael was Jesus, the Second Adam.

The Seventh Day Adventists taught the following two doctrines: (a) man does not have a soul, he is a soul, and at death the soul goes into a "sleep" until the Second Coming; (b) hell is not eternal: at the Second Coming all the wicked will be annihilated. The JWs borrowed these two beliefs with very few changes. They did change "soul sleep" to soul disappearance after death. The JWs are the latest of the three best known Adventist religions and obviously borrowed a great deal from the Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists.

3)Arianism. The early Church taught very clearly that Jesus is God. The writings of the early Church Fathers confirm this. The first major heresy to reject the divinity of Christ started in 318AD. when a proud and rebellious Catholic priest named Arius began teaching that Jesus was not God. Like the JWs Arius praised Jesus with all kinds of high sounding titles while denying His divinity. However, the early Church leaders were not fooled. They called a general council in Nicea (the Council of Nicea, 325AD) and condemned this heresy. The Arian heresy continued to plague the Church for about 100 years before it finally fizzled. It was not seen after that on a major scale until the religious free for all that hit this country in the 1880's.
JWs claim that the early Church did not believe Jesus was God. This is absurd. Not onluy did every early Church Father teach that Jesus is God, even pagan historians living at the time of the Apostles recognized that Christianity was noted for its belief in the divinity of Christ. For example, Pliny the Younger (born in 62AD) one of the best know of the ancient pagan historians, wrote that the divinity of Christ was an essential doctrine of Christianity.
Unlike Catholic and Protestant Bible translations, which are faithful to the original manuscripts, the JWs have deliberately mistranslated many parts of the Bible to fit their own doctrines.It should be obvious that if the JW Bible, the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION (NWT) differs substantially from all the best translations of our time, something is very wrong with it.

JW's teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. This group is called the "Anointed." All other people who are righteous before God will inherit an everlasting earthly paradise. The JWs teach that the group of the 144,000 Anointed began with the Apostles, and was completed by 1935. This means, according to the JWs it is no longer possible for anyone to become part of the Anointed. People who have joined the JWs since 1935 have no hope of going to heaven. They can only hope for a paradise on earth.

Jws believe that the Old Testament saints could not enter heaven. They also will inherit only the earthly paradise. JWs call all dwellers of the earthly paradise the "other sheep" Thus, according to JW the true followers of God (Jehovah) are divided into two groups: the 144,000 Anointed and the "other sheep."

So I hope this answers your question about why your best friend is trying to get a year's supply of food. I don't know why they would only have a 3-day survival pack or why they would have any type of survival pack at all.

Juz:

The Mormon Church, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not just an American religion. There are now more members outside of America than there are here in America. It is virtually worldwide.

I live in the state of North Carolina.

To answer your question on the year's supply of food and the the 3 day pack, or seventy-two hour kit.

The church recommends that we be prepared for potential situations that would make it difficult to obtain items we need. This would include primarily food, but could also consist of items such as toothpaste, diapers, razor blades, and many other things.

One scenario could be a strike by truckers that crippled food distribution to stores. People could theoretically have difficulty obtaining items they need. The economy could turn bad and I could lose my job. I could live for a time off of items I have stored. Many members of the church actually do have a year's worth of food stored. Probably a greater number don't have a full year's worth, but have some stored. Maybe a month or a half-year's worth.

The seventy-two hour kit is more for short-term emergencies. An example...in 1996 my state was hit by a hurricane that knocked out power and telephones for days and weeks, depending on where in North Carolina one lived. In our seventy-hour kit we had flashlights, batteries, candles, a Coleman stove on which to cook, food...

This made it easier to get by in event of an emergency. These situations would be more often than not some type of natural disaster. We were able to share what we had with neighbors who were extremely grateful.

I hope this clarifies things a little.

Why do you feel it necessary to criticize all beliefs contrary to your own, even without being asked to? In the scriptures it says that Satan is the father of quarrel. He is the only one who 'wins' an argument.

I wrote that last posting to TAB in case there's any confusion.

I am assuming you are quoting John 8 verses 42-44
If your not let me know which verse you are quoting
42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me.
43
Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word.
44
You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.