h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well good to see that we're feeling practically genial here now.

Anyhoo. TG, I've got a misanthropic isolationist friend with a superiority complex... you two would get along great. No matter how stupid how many people are, there's always humor. And baseball. Whenever I get really mad, I think of those two things. It's great.

Now carry on.

Perhaps it's better to say that everyone is stupid some of the time. Just some of us are at precisely the WRONG time!
I think that every group has thought at one point that they were to be the last people on earth. The early Christians thought that the Second Coming was just around the corner. They were wrong then, and they are wrong now. Mankind will prevail. Because we're great.

*Stirring hymns to the glory of humanity play in the air*
*Patriarch stands and watches the sunset, at peace with the world*

A quote from _Inherit the Wind_.
Brady (bad guy): Is it possible that something is holy to the celebrated agnostic?
Drummond (good guy): Yes! *his voice drops, intensely* The individual human mind. In a child's power to master the multiplication table there is more sanctity than all your shouted "Amens," "Holy, Holies!" and "Hosannahs!" An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is more of a miracle than any sticks turned to snakes, or the parting of waters.

You're lucky.... I went all the way upstairs and back to get the book and find the exact quote.

Hey, that's pretty cool! I couldn't agree more. Evolution and Natural selection are more perfect than a thousand gold buildings.
Apart from, of course, the word 'holy'. Because that implies something religious. It's just great. Nothing mysterious or other-worldly or sacred about it.

Why not? Everybody else gets mocked, why is it always religion that is somehow excempt? (or should be, in some people's view - in reality - Monty Python? need I say more?) Religion has maybe brought joy to many people, but it has also caused untold misery and is still used as a powerful weapon of oppression. It does deserve the occasional mocking. THEY get to mock my faith by putting on their horrid drivel on Sunday mornings when I try to find something to watch on telly, and by pushing leaflets at me when I'm innocently walking down the street, and by condemning publicly my "lifestyle"; and to add insult to injury then THEY smugly declare religion to be outside the normal realm of criticism. Furthermore, for all they claims of upholding moral values, THEY only seem interested in sex. Any amount of social injustice, dealing arms to Third World, destruction of our living planet etc. gets by without a comment, but GOD HELP US no-one should have sex if it isn't specifically approved by some Jesus-head. I do acknowledge people's right to practice their funny little rituals if it doesn't involve hurting anyone, but other people should be free to voice their opinions as well.

Mockery is actualy the best weapon we have against this sort of thing. Rabid xtians are delighted when you oppress them, and invulnerable to reason, but cannot stand to be made fun of.

Because of what they believe they deserve to be made fun of?

On a different note, if they want to call themselves Christians, why do people refuse to spell it out? If I want to call myself Messianist how is that any different?

Actually, you are absolutely completely right, Fruitbat. But think of it this way:

I've seen several xtians telling me that my Atheism is as much a religion as theirs. I find that so very insulting that I can't begin paying them back for that. I'd like to come out with at least a LITTLE dignity, something that they don't seem to care about. In fact, from that point of view, they are mocking themselves badly enough already by insulting everyone that has a different view on things.

The only thing that we would be able to do to hurt them is to question their parentage, but that would be very undignifying for us. And I don't think their parents have deserved it: these poor people are handicapped enough, having such offspring.

Oops...

Ok, let me put it another way: xtians in general are fine with me, AS LONG AS they don't mock anyone who doesn't share their faith, and AS LONG AS they don't insult Atheists by saying that Atheism is a religion.

No, loreth, nobody deserves to be made fun of. But those xtians who are happy enough to start making fun of those that do not believe the same thing (or do not believe at all), can't expect us all to accept that without making fun of them in return.

I don't like making fun of people because they don't have enough faith in life itself, and therefor need to believe in some sort of higher power. That's like making fun of a cripple. The poor man ended up under a truck, lost the control of his legs (or lost his legs altogether), and is having enough of a hard time the way things are, and then we start making fun of him because he doesn't simply walk.

That's not how it should be. If someone needs a religion, or feels better having one, then that should be perfectly alright. Just like the cripple needing that wheelchair. But they must stop mocking others, if they want my respect!

Spelling it out? You mean like christians? Just takes too much typing for the average lazy non-xtian

If you want to call yourself a Messianist, that's fine with me and anyone within the FFFF. I don't know what it means to you to be a Messianist, and in what way it differs from xtians in general and from roman catholics in particular. To me you're just a person like me or anyone else, and as long as we can both refrain ourselves from becoming insulting, then what does it matter what you or I believe?

"Ok, let me put it another way: xtians in general are fine with me, AS LONG AS they don't mock anyone who doesn't share their faith"

I agree. But I would hold the same true for everyone. *cough, cough* And no, I ain't accusing you of having 'faith' I would change it to 'anyone who dares think differently.'

Perfect, billypilgrim. If only I mastered my emotions, my reasoning skills and my english half as well as you... I enjoyed reading this!

Ofcourse, it IS true for everyone, or at least it should be. Alas, a lot of people don't think like you and I, though. They enjoy mocking others, or they do it because they don't know better.

I know you weren't accusing me of anything. But I've already seen a few others who did. We should all be allowed to believe or not believe what we wish, as we wish. And we should also all be able to talk about it, share our views, even with those that think differently, without getting insulting (I'm not pointing any fingers here, and most certainly not at you). However, with many (NOT ALL) xtians it's very hard to put up a fair discussion. Pity, because I love having a good discussion, especially on this kind of topic.

I do as well.

You now have a fan, bp... ME!

Why do we single out religion for this testing analysis ? Perhaps it is because many people have not asked themselves the fundemental question. Do I have Faith ? Now , there is no point in pretending , no point in attending church just in case. If there is a God he can see into your heart and knows what you truly beleive , if there is not , then you are wasting your time. Be truthful with yourself , do you have Faith in your religion ?Once you accept this point , once you realise it is a question of Faith , then there is no difference between what an Atheist and an Agnostic beleives . They may think there is a difference , but neither has Faith. If you do have Faith , then I am very happy for you . It must be nice to truly believe that if you play your cards right you can be chatting with historical greats in a few hundred years time , you are truly lucky. But the rest of us ? What about us , to us death is the final dance and the possibility of further discourse is somewhat limited.
But once you realise that it is all about Faith you can look elsewhere for what we all take on Faith . We take a suprising amount on Faith alone. Many people do not understand the question , but why does 1 and 1 equal 2 ? Fairly fundemental that , but most of us take it on Faith. We take on Faith that the laws of Physics are univerasal , and that gravity will not abruptly stop one day. We also take on Faith that particles exist , points exist , waves exist and many others , all of which are open to speculation when you analyse them .
But those who do have Faith , why do you get rattled by those of us who don't ?When you have Faith in something , you know it to be true , that is not the same as it being true for everyone . Other people may equally have faith in the exact opposite to you . Some people have Faith in God , others have Faith in there not being a God . Some have no Faith that concerns God .I do not have Faith in God , I wish I did , life would be so much easier if someone else was responsible for judging my morality . It would be so much easier to have a terminal illness (we all get one one day) .
If you have Faith , true Faith , then no amount of discussion will sway you from it . If you only think on the balance of possibilities you have Faith , then you don't , you just won't admit it.
TTFN

Interesting, very interesting. I believe there are some questions now, but I will make a few remarks first.

I see no testing analysis. I see a statement from a number of people saying that having Faith is pointless, because there is not God. And also I see a statement from some people saying that it's very unlikely, but not entirely impossible that a God exists; they don't really believe in him, but they don't competely rule out the chance that they will some day. If there's any singling-out of religion, it's because religion is clearly opposite to what those people accept to be true.

The above immediately sets out the difference between Atheists and Agnostics, in plain sight:

1. Atheists are certain that there is no God, although the true scientific Atheists will continue to look for evidence either way, and are prepared to adjust their conviction according to the outcome of such research. They do not have Faith in there not being a God, because that would be a religious choice. Atheists are non-religious.

2. Agnostics say it's impossible for them at this point to ascertain whether or not this God exists. They do not completely dismiss the possibility, but want better proof before they embrace him, if ever.

You stated that we take a lot on Faith. I care to disagree. I do not take on Faith that 1 + 1 = 2, but in stead I accept that we have collectively decided to name 1 one and 2 two. The mathematical consequence is of no importance. Simply taking one apple in one hand, and another apple in the other is anough to find that you now hold two apples. We have given them the names one and two, but the calculation would have been valid regardless what kind of naming-convention was used. all the scientific data that is currently available, was not taken on Faith, as you state, but was in stead gathered as empirical evidence from extensive research.

Now I'll get to your opening words: "Why do we single out religion for this testing analysis ? Perhaps it is because many people have not asked themselves the fundemental question. Do I have Faith?"

Let's make one thing clear: all Atheists and Agnositcs have chosen their stance after having carefully considered the above question. And they have concluded that either they have no Faith, or Faith is irrelevant because there's nothing to have Faith in.

I will gladly state that I'm very happy having no Faith, because the non-existence of God means that some day the torture of wondering whether this all has meaning will end. If there was a God, then with all he has made man go through so far, he would most probably continue to torture and test and probe us for eons beyond our deaths. Now that's a prospect that I can not handle. I like my existence the way it is, but it also leaves me with some questions, which I hope will *never* be answered, because the answers are probably much more unsettling than the questions.

Hmmm, having said all this, I must now correct myself. I have no questions for you regarding your posting. But I certainly hope to see more coming, if there's anything you'd like to add.

Twophlag Gargleblap,

The point about our "silly little names" - Atheist/Physicalist/Agnostic/... is that when you go into a hospital, and they give you a form to fill in, it'll ask you for your religion. Assuming that you don't want a patronising secretary to tell you that you've forgotten to fill part of it in, you need to put *something* there.
What do *you* say when someone asks you what religion you are?

Hi MyRedDice,

You forget one minor detail: we also have those "silly little names" to distonguish ourselves from eachother. An Atheist is clearly somewhat different from an Agnostic or a Physicalist. But apart from that, you're absolutely right.

At the risk of a thousand pythonesque replies .....
What does God get from us ? And why does he/she want it ?

The reason we single out religion is because it's about many of the most universal, life-altering truths.

God gets an ego boost.