h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Maybe I took too much from the fact that you started your post with an affirmative "yes".

I think that parents do have varying degrees of control on how the children in their care grow-up. That does not mean that parents have no influence. COntrol and influence are not entirely the same.

I apologise for making it sound like you had said things you had not.

I was replying to both of you. Studies of children are hard to do because like us they dont always tell the truth. Moreover the subtleties of human behaviour and the motives behind it can not only behidden or missed by researchers but can more tellingly be ignored by researchers.

Like I say there are quite plainly many factors controlling and influencing the developement of people all through our lives to dismiss any of them across the board would be a folly for anyone. Though I accpet that neither Recumbent or Pattern chaser necessarily feel that way.

one love

No apology necessary, Blicky!

I won't speak for anyone else, but, for myself, I am convinced by Judith Rich Harris, when she says that parent's influence on their children's personalities - on the people they grow up to be - is limited to their genes, and to their peer groups. [As I mentioned before, parents define where a child lives, and therefore exercise some control over their children's peer group(s), if somewhat indirectly.]

I don't think this denies anything you said, Blicky. It is quite a specific point. And JRH insists that all of the studies carried out over many years confirm her beliefs.

For step-parents like me, it means that whatever my children become has little to do with me. This does *not* mean that I have no influence on their lives, and so on and so forth. But the people they have grown up to be, they would have been anyway, even if I never entered their lives.

Is that good or bad? I have no idea.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

My siblings and I were raised seperately and under fairly similar social circumstances. All in the same city, same neighbourhoods for some of us, some of us by different people in the same family we even went to the same schools at some points and have many mutual friends.

I see circumstances like this a lot and know that within our lives are more things than I can express here, but I hand on heart can tell you that the self discipline and responsibility and care I got that my brothers lacked I really think makes the difference between me being a yout worker and all of them and one of my sisters spending time in prison on several occasions in one case.

Some people seem hell bent on isolating genetic reasons for behaviour. Well good for them. If they find answers there for my Brothers' and Sister's problems Id be very happy. That day isnt here and may never come in the meantime I think we should keep working on what we can do. There is no need to feel guilty if you have done your honest best, but to say we have no influence when we are not sure is something that worries me.

one love

Blicky~ this is somewhat duplicating our conversation on Crime and Gender at F19585?thread=352445. I guess I take the responsibility for the "parenting has no effect" suggestion here, and I do accept your distinction between "good parenting" and "parenting in general". If the figure averages out at zero influence, then that could include some positive influence, such as you enjoyed, and some negative influence, where discipline was rewarded with rebellion.

Good for you ~R

OK, Blicky, 'abuse' (if we may use that as a catch-all term) will have some effect on most people as they grow up, regardless of whether the perpetrator is a parent or someone else.

Outside of 'abuse', parental influence on the adults their children become is limited, I think, as JRH describes, to heredity and indirect choice of peer group.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Whenever a scholar claims that "all of the studies" support their findings, the first thing I want to know is, which studies, and how were they conducted?

Personally, I think this whole area of scholarship is a mess, as you could pretty much find whatever it is you're looking for. If you try to study healthy families as a control group, you can't determine which behaviors stem from genetics, and which are learned behaviors. The same problem exists when you separate the children from the parents... does this child behave like this because their uncle did, or does someone around them exhibit this trait and the child learned it?

Personality is an evolutionary process. Children come into the world with a particular personality, but it changes based on their experiences and their reactions to those experiences. The key is reaction... they make the choices. Nobody changes their own personality except by conscious or subconscious choice.

And here's where I see parents making the mistake every day... they destroy their own credibility with their kids. They jump to conclusions, they don't explain themselves properly, they punish improperly and/or inconsistenly, don't support each other in parenting decisions, and basically make themselves look stupid. Once the kid decides the parents are stupid, the kid stops listening. It happened with my parents. I see it happening with the children of my friends and family. And it's not that they're being bad parents. Kids make parents go mental. For instance, by age four they're pathological liars, so how can the parents know when the kid tells the truth? But those few incidents where the kid *is* telling the truth is where the damage to the relationship is done.

In PC's case, this lack of credibility could be as simple as "you're not my father!" And there probably isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

Once the parents have lost their credibility, the kids have to find out about the world from somewhere else. That's where the peers come in. But it doesn't have to be a peer, either... just someone they can connect with and respect. I've seen where my wife and I have had a profound effect on a couple of kids in our family precisely because we're not their parents, so we don't go mental and we pretty much trust what they're telling us. We respond honestly and frankly. We can see how much they respect and value that. In that way we can be an effective balance for those kids against any bad influences from their peers.

And now that my wife and I have had a chance to watch all these parents in action, and learn from their mistakes, we have our own on the way. And we'll still probably make the same mistakes.

CAVEAT: this is my best understanding of Judith Rich Harris's work; it could be seriously flawed. So, AIUI, she utilised all the studies whose results she could get her hands on. These were not conducted by her, or on her behalf, she merely reanalysed the results, looking for evidence to support her own theories.



Well you can look at step-parents and their step-children, and compare them with blood-related parents and children. The advantage JRH had, I think, is that she was able to combine many studies, to get quite a large database.

Anyone who wants more than my second-hand regurgitation might like to start here: http://www.channel4.com/learning/main/netnotes/programid1539.htm





Just like we all do! Good luck to you both!

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Congratulations Blatherskite! That's fantastic news. I'm sure you'll make a great Dad. All my best to your wife, too (actually the beer should be for you, really. Save her a cigar instead).