h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4330445.stm

This is the first time I've been able to get online after the IRA statement was released, and I'm surprised that there isn't a convo in full flow about this here already.

My reaction is pretty much the one that I expect most hootooizens (being, on the large, reasonable people) will have had. That of: "You what?!" I seriously can't believe that the IRA will have thought that the offer would have been a good idea, and that making the matter public is good PR.

I am encouraged, though, by the McCartney family rejecting the offer. Stating instead that they don't want to see anyone physically harmed, but rather brought to court and convicted. I'm encouraged because that is the way that crimes should be dealt with in any decent and civilised society.

Clearly the IRA still think of themselves as above the law, and a law unto themselves.

So, I'd like to say to the McCartney family: good on yer! That is the way to do it.

And to the IRA: what were you thinking? Or weren't you?


Geggs

I think 'What!!!' sums up my reaction.

I really do admire the McCartney family for rejecting the offer.

Is any one else intriged by the contrast in the treatment of the IRA when compared to Al Quida?

They just don't get it, do they?

In my opinion this is the beginning of the end of the Provos, and it's also possibly the real beginning of the transitionary phase into democracy in Northern Ireland. The moment has arrived when their own community has realised that they have served their purpose, and now they need to go.

They are about as much help to Sinn Féin now as a bedsore. By being associated with the IRA, Sinn Féin are going to be frozen out of democratic politics in Ireland, which is a huge pity. Any ambitions they have of expanding their political base on the island have taken a massive hit. Sinn Féin can't say on the one hand that they are for justice, but on the other hand tolerate a system of kangaroo courts, punishment shootings, massive money laundering operations, smuggling operations, spying activities and bank robberies.

They are about as much help to their own communities as a flea infestation. They might think that they do a fine job policing their own communities, but who polices them? Who gets to find out the rights and wrongs of the cases they arbitrate on? Why is there never a right to appeal? Why is anti-social behaviour sometimes punishable by death or permanent disfigurement, when its not the case in areas outside their control, and when such punishments are proscribed by most democracies? Why do the communities they police have to live in fear the whole time?

I believe, despite everything that has happened recently, that the Sinn Féin leadership are sincere about moving the process forward. Trouble is, with the IRA still around, nobody is going to trust them. It's time for them to accept that the old rules no longer apply, to take an active role in policing and to wave bye-bye to the Boys. The war, as it was, is over. It's time for the guns to go and the people to take over.

Just proves they're still nasty little thugs with more in common with the Krays than 'freedom fighters'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are the Sien Fein leadership not among the heads of the PIRA?

Talk about insulting to the McCartney family.

Oh, sorry we killed your husband, father of your children - hey, we'll just kill the killers okay and set things straight!

I mean, as if they are above the law??? They can hand out executions on their own? Um . . . no I don't think so! If they killed the killers then they would - and should - be charged with murder. Just like anyone else would.

Talk about angry-making!


az

Bubba- they certainly *were*, but they now claim they're not. Hmmm.

azahar - that's the problem really. For many year they have been above the law, or at least, untouchable by the law. They are having difficultly adapting to a situation where they aren't.


Geggs

Re the SF leadership in the IRA - Allegedly, yes. (Great word "allegedly")

However Sinn Fein have had a huge influx of new members in recent times that have no direct relationship with the IRA. Many of them may be sympathetic to their cause, but they are not directly involved in IRA actions. Many of these people are not too happy of late to see how their more militaristic buddies have been acquitting themselves.

The leadership of SF consistently deny it, but its more because if they admitted their involvement they might find themselves immediately charged with membership of an illegal organisation. The IRA leadership is a 7 man group, some of whom (Adams & are committed to a political path, and others who are involved up to their eyes in all sorts of illegal stuff and who don't really give a toss about the political process. Its kind of schizophrenic at the moment, but I think the organisation is likely to split, with the vast majority of members moving to the political side, ie. Sinn Féin.

The McCartney family holds all the cards at the moment. This was not an unexpected reaction from the IRA, but it has just proven their complete inadequacy to deal with the issue.

I don't think the McCartney family is either surprised or upset by the IRA - shooting and death threats have been the traditional way the IRA dealt with such issues. They don't have other options.

My word - it seems there were 2 prospective Sinn Fein candidates in the bar when the fight took place. Guess what they say they saw.

It must take really selective eyesight to see nothing as a group of 12 people remove cctv tapes, clean up the area, and wash it down. Not to mention seeing nothing while two men were systematically beaten to a pulp.

The whole affair has shown up several things;

1) Gerry 'NO!' Adams and Martin 'reformed bomber' McGuinness are completely unfit to have any further part in any peace process until such time as they publicly call on the collection of cut-throats, murderers and common thugs that is the IRA to disband, or publicly denounce them, or preferably both.

2) That some parts of the US are inhabited by even stupider people than we previously thought possible as the stupid, ignorant arses continue to raise funsds for the IRA and welcome Gerry Adams. Aparently they have learnt NOTHING from 9/11.

Adams and McGuinness are part of the IRA (allegedly ), and more significantly, the public voices and leaders of a very large Irish Republican community in Ireland which does, by-and-large, desire a resolution of the outstanding problems by totally peaceful means. It's unlikely that they could ever publically disassociate themselves from the IRA. What would be better would be for the IRA to disband, to announce that they have nothing positive to add to the development of politics in Ireland, and to leave all the talking up to their political representatives. Despite everything that has happened recently, I don't think McGuiness or Adams are going to bring their community back to the cul-de-sac of the Troubles. However cynical we might feel, they have invested far too much in bringing their community out of the the circumstances of the 70's, 80's and early 90's. They are going to find a resolution to this - they don't have any other options - and I think that given just a bit more time, it could just be the most historically significant thing that has taken place in Ireland for 90 years.

Presumably, even if the IRA *has* fully realised that violence isn't advancing politics, they want to keep hovering around in the background so they can claim some of the credit for future political advances, and if they completely disbanded officially, it would be even more obvious that not only are some of their members simply criminal thugs, but that some of them always *were*.

Well, based on the issue that prompted this thread in the first place, the IRA clearly hasn't accepted, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that violence isn't helping the situation now. For the last 10 years they have been hovering around in the background - and actively hovering at that - but the tolerance of this has now come to an end. The trick has to be in selling an acceptance that the IRA is part of a broad Irish Republican community, and that the this community now must move to totally peaceful means of political advancement. I would not have thought that this was such a difficulty given that there has been such progress in the past 11 years, but obviously it still is a major problem in some quarters. It's all about hearts and minds now.

"that some of them always *were*." - It would not necessarily be obvious to the community that all their members always were. The circumstances of total distrust of the RUC, the British Army and the motives of the British Government lead to a broad acceptance of the need for the IRA at the time. These circumstances have now changed quite radically.

I said *some*, not *all*.

If people in republican communities consider what is happening now to be unacceptable, they presumably either have to accept that
a) There always *were* some people who were prone to direct unacceptable violence against their own community as well as against 'enemy' communities, and those people have laregly stopped the violence against other communities, but kept on harming their own.
b) The organistaion used to be whiter-than-white, but has now somehow either been taken over by thugs, or the previous good ol' boys have somehow now *started* attacking their own.

Presumably many people have a good idea of just who was to blame for the recent murder, and their history in the movement.

Let's fact it, there were many people who did consider the IRA as some kind of law enforcement agency in areas where the police couldn't fully enforce the law, but many of those people would probably have preferred a more just system.
Most of the blame for the police being unable to operate was down to people not cooperating (partly out of distrust, though possibly more out of fear of violence) and the police being constantly targeted by murderers.
Without the violence driving the police away, much of the rasion d'etre for the IRA enforcing control on communities would have disappeared, but many people had good criminal reasons for wanting to stay in charge of things.
The police may have been unrepresentative, but then Catholic recruits put their lives at risk just by joining, so who was most to blame for that? It was in the interests of a minority of people to keep business going as usual. Some people were doing well enough, whether financially or in terms of enjoying power, and didn't really want things to change.

For many communities on both sides of the divide that's been the reality of for the entire duration of most people's lives. I don't think it was strictly through fear that people kept quiet. It's more inertia - that's the way things were always done. It's become so much part of the picture that nobody really questioned it until now. And now that it's being questioned, it could potentially do a lot of damage from within. When people see a) that some people involved in the IRA have been enriching themselves without any benefit to the wider community and b) that these people are no longer above the law, things could indeed change quite quickly.

When I first went to Northern Ireland as a soldier in 1970 we were welcomed by the Republican Community as saviours from the Loyalists, and to be quite honest, they needed saving. I spent many I night in bars in the Republican Areas of Derry having a right whale of time. We even went across the border and visited a pub in Donegall on a regular basis with no problems at all.

However, that all changed when it was realised that the British Army were not there to defended the Republicans against the Loyalists, they were there to defend everyone against anyone.

The Provisional IRA then came along and decided to take advantage of the situation in order to further there own aims. The Official IRA had already declared a ceasefire. The aims of the PIRA and Sinn Fein was a Marxist state which not even the Dublin Government was not prepared to tolerate.

If Sinn Fein had put the same amount of effort into a political solution in the last 45 years as they have in the last 11 years, then something really concrete might have been achieved. It is the realisation of this fact that is now making the Republican community realise that they have been badly misled over the 45 years.

Donald

The thing that got me was when McGuiness "Warned" the family not to get "Politically involved" over the matter. Why? What is he going to do about it if they did? Send the boys round? That would be their style, wouldnt it...........