h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4180845.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4184319.stm

A tricky one, but can faith based schools exist within a secular society and at the same time promote the values of that secular society?

If the answer is no then is there any place for them? Surely that can only reduce the social cohesion within the society.

Despite going to a Catholic school and getting fairly good qualifications there, my opinion is no, we shouldn't have faith schools. There's too much division within the education system as is, without adding further barriers. When it comes to faith schools, those in favour always point to the league table positions and so on, as proof that faith schools 'work'. But this assumes that the only measurement of a school's worth is the attainment of GCSEs - what if this comes at the expense of social division. If you spend the formative years of your life in an environment unchallenged by other ideas, with minimal contact of those with other or no faith, then this is pretty dangerous. Plus, the 'choice' element in these schools does, in my opinion, have a lot to do with their success. A child whose parents choose to send him/her to a certain school will tend to have certain advantages over a pupil whose parents don't, over and above that choice.

Of course, we're going to have faith schools whatever, but what worries me is the government pointing to faith schools as 'leading the way' based simply on results - a dangerous thing to do, in my opinion.

I really don't think that argument is specific to faith-based schools -- the same could be said about private (not government funded) schools in general.

That said, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. There are advantages to a society in having some diversity in the educational system -- personally, I would far rather live in a society where different perspectives are valued than a society with complete social cohesion -- I think the latter can be limiting to intellectual growth of a population, truthfully.

I also went to a Catholic school, and I got 425 points in my Leaving Cert - for you non-Irish, that is good. We had about 10 Muslims and a whole lot of Jews, and no-one ever insulted anyone else based on religion, skin colour, etc, or lack thereof. If it did ever happen, the bullies would be swiftly dealt with by the other kids, and if it kept going, the bully would likely be punished by the principal - who, until recently, had always been a member of a Christian religious order.

The most recent principal opened up an almost never used room to allow the Muslim boys to pray at the relevant times rather than having to go across town to find somewhere. This principal is a devout Christian.

The religeon program did indeed look at the world from a Catholic point of view, but it focussed more on being nice to people and respecting the beliefes of others. We were also taught about proper contraception and what REALLY happens in an abortion.

So yes, it is entirely possible to have faith-based schools and social cohesion which do not cancel each other out. I'm not saying faith schools are necessarily any better than others, just that they are not the evil demons some people make them out to be.

What was 'proper contraception' at a Catholic school?

Just tying a knot in it, or was the rhythm method also broached?



sprout

One of my teachers had this to say:

"Now lads, this is a Catholic school, so I'm not allowed to tell ye to use condoms. If you get the impression that I am, remember I'm not. Right? Now use condoms. Remember, ye didn't hear that from me."

He took a bit longer, but that was pretty much it.

Reminds me of the obligatory Catholic marriage councelling we got before our wedding. The Jesuit priest tried to convince us that what the Pope said in his infamous Humanae Vitae document was misinterpreted by the media, but most couples there were not having it. Fair enough though, they covered the entire spectrum of contraceptive choices available without any tut-tutting. Most of them know when they're beaten.

When I think back on the fact that condom machines were banned here until the early nineties I still get annoyed. What a long way we have come...

I think a lot of people don't realise the catholic church has moved on since the 1880s. I went to a catholic school too, and some of the ideas people have about what exactly it's like are quite bizarre!

"I went to a catholic school too, and some of the ideas people have about what exactly it's like are quite bizarre!"


That's partly the point, then, isn't it? People don't know what it's like because it's an alien, removed place. You go someplace different, then you're regarded as different yourself.

Well, nobody can go to every school so the ones they don't go to will be alien by that score. But I'm talking about quite specific myths, eg:

- "You're not allowed to play soccer"
- "Teachers all teach creationism"
- "Pupils all live in fear of being sexually abused"
- "People are educated without ever hearing a dissenting voice" (I had a lot of religion teachers whose live would be so much easier if that one was true!)
- "Pupils never hear about contraception other than the rythym method (except that it will land you in hell)"

And many more. All completely divorced from any experience I've had.

The Canadian constitution not only allows faith-based school systems but it specifically requires a Catholic school system exist right along side the "Public" system. Both are financed by tax dollars. The country certainly hasn't disintigrated after more than a century of this system and, in fact, the country is more unified than at any point in its history. As well, as I've described on other threads, there are now a multitude of faith-based, language based, ethnicity based programmes within the various Public systems. And the country just seems to keep feeling better and better about itself.

I'm beginning to feel more and more that the problems people see aren't really to do with the idea of multiculturalism but rather with the particular societies that are confronting multiculturalism.

The point about measuring faith schools alongside state schools is not measuring like against like.

Funding at Church schools invariably includes contributions from the faith centre. Councils are oblidged to supply free transport from other parts of the education area. Certain parts of the rules that bind standard comprehensive schools can be elected out by the governing body.

I still just don't get the problem.

I hear you lot going on about all the problems you're having with the different schools, like your society is falling apart because the Muslim community wants to educate its kids in Arabic, and then I look around me at a century and a half of multinlingual, multi-faith, separate, constitutionally mandated school systems in a society that is one of the more peaceful and contented societies on the planet and one of the most culturally and ethnically diverse societies on the planet and I think 'what's the problem?'

My niece goes to a French Catholic school and, so far, she hasn't turned into a pumpkin, hasn't been turned into a rabid Catholic (she's the only Unitarian Catholic I know and no one there seems to care that she goes to Unitarian services on Sunday instead of Catholic services), and she is getting as good (or better) an education as any child I know.

Four of my nieces and nephews went to catholic school, part of it in French, part in English and they're all very nicely educated, very secular, rambunciously rude . . . in fact, indistinguishable from the students of any of the dozens of other programmes in the area.

There definitely seems to be something odd about Canada, Mudhooks.

I wrote this big long explanation of the school system in Canada and Ontario, and then my computer froze and I lost it. I will try and summarize...

In Ontario, we have French and English public schools, French and English Separate (Catholic) schools, and private schools.

In 1986, then Premier, Bill Davis brought into law an Act which guaranteed Catholic Secondary schools public-funding. Up until then, Catholic schools were publicly funded to Grade 10, necessitating children to either enter a non-Catholic public school or attend a private Catholic school. This discriminated not just Catholic families that could not afford private education, and French families, as the majority of which are Catholic.

Now, students can attend either a publicly-funded French or English Catholic or secular school or a private school which is funded by fees.

In Ontario, with the exception of Religious Education, the curriculum is the same in Public and Catholic schools.

When one fills out the Enumeration form for voting, or on the Provincial tax form, one indicates which school system one supports and the tax dollars are divided and directed to the Boards, according to the percentages in the various regions.

Same in Alberta, Mudhooks. Except Catholic schools are funded all the way.

The only difference I see between Catholic and non-Catholic schools is the uniforms... Catholic girls were the shortest uniforms in the Universe.

Mind you, I went to a private school (Elmwood Girls School, now co-ed with Ashbury College) for one disasterous year and, while I used to wear my uniform at a rather conservative length, the older girls wore theirs ending well north of decent. Mind you, we wore bloomers, though I can't say they covered all that much.

Out here nobody wears uniforms except the girls in the Nellie McClung programme, which is part of the public system.

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In NZ, there are many types of non-state school, Christian (Catholic, and what would be called here on hootoo, "fundamentalist"), Libertarian (which are for-profit), New Age-y and one each of Hindu and Muslim. (There may be other Muslim schools by now, but as of last year, it was one.

I don't know about promoting the values of that secular society, (nor why they should necessarily) but they have no negative impact on social cohesion...