h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

There has been considerable comment about the reception in the UK for troops coming home from conflicts such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Not the least from the Army CoS. How would posters welcome back to the UK, soldiers sent there on 'our' behalf, ( more likely TB's )who come home with what was described as "shell shock" in WW1 but is now a recognised condition, long outlasting "battle fatigue"

Novo

Morning Novo,

As I've argued before there is a dichotomy in supporting the troops while opposing the political aspects of both theatres. Apart from the criminal aspects of invading Iraq and the futility of Afghanistan what the conflicts have exposed is how this penny pinching administration treats the service men and women. Slum levels of housing, miserley compensation, second rate and missing equipment and lets be honest would you put your life on the line for £20k per annum. That's what some of the soldiers get paid.

plus ca change - though. It was ever so and it will ever be.

Isn't it Kipling with the "Tommy this and Tommy that" poem? That about summed it up then, and sums it up now.

To W A and Sho

The paucity of comment on this thread shows that Sho is right to refer to Kipling.

Where are all the other posters , usually so keen to demonstrate their intellect?, [ ofetn on subjects of little importance ]

Novo
Saddened by the self interest...

you know, Novo, when you see that worm-filled-can and the can-opener, you really should stand well back

Here's a new angle. I think a lot of people are embarassed by the political hype and cynicism that is going on. What a coincidence that it is being leaked that Gordy may well receive advise next week that the number of troops in Iraq can be reduced by two or three thousand. Nothing at all to do with a forthcoming election that might well be announced on the same day.

It makes me sick.

I, for one, didn't reply until prodded because Defense is so important and I can too easily say unpleasant things through sheer RAGE.

I don't have a problem separating the misguided war from the people fighting it.

Kipling... oh yes.

Sorry but it's worth reading again:

http://www.uea.ac.uk/edu/learn/braysher/tommy.htm

you beat me to it, WA

thanks

Yes,

Thanks WA, and Sho

Novo

Why does it sicken you WA? You want troop reductions in Iraq right? So if Gordy responds to demands of the electorate, isn't he doing his job?

Don't really understand this thread. Are WA, Novo, Sho saying that we should personally welcome the troops back?

Or that we should be shocked by poor official procedures for returning soldiers?

I haven't seen anything about this, so it's difficult to react.

Perhaps that's why you haven't had much response?

sprout

I think it's the lack of any reception for the returning forces combined with general crap conditions and pay that's got them wound up, but I could be wrong.

What's to say that I havent said before.

Singing up to be a front line soldier (human flak jacket/hired killer) for your country is one of the dumbest moves going.

Brave, valiant, courageuos and patriotic but dumb none the less. It looks smarter if you know what you intend to get out of signing up or you havent got anything to look forward to in civillian life but I doubt that there can be many soldiers, sailors or RAF personnel happy to be pawns in Bush and Blairs real life game of risk.


I would be a hypocrite to welcome them back as part of a banner waving parade because it would glamourize something I detest. It would send out the wrong message to those returning should we be attempting to give them a sense of pride in being the willing or unwilling dupes of politicicans?

I have friends in all three branches of the armed forces and everyday I wish them and everyone of their colleagues a long and happy life, but should I feel guitly if they are in a bad situation? They made a choice afterall.

If I were asked to figth for a cause Id do it if I believed in the cause but I wouldnt offer my mortal loyalty on a pig in a poke.

Those that have deserve nothing from me other than that which they saw in writting the day they signed up. Yet i still drop my money in the box in November and welcome my friends home with a warm handshake and .

It is a question of free choice how you treat, think of and receive soldiers much like the decison to take the Queens shilling is.

one love

I'm not actually wound up about anything apart from the way these guys are treated. I just commented in this thread and it seems to be a slow day.

it's not dumb to sign up to serve your country, any more than it is dumb to want to work in the community (sport in schools for example) to do your bit there. Especially if you learn a useful trade (as a lot of soldiers do, then they soldier for a bit then they leave and can get a job)

I don't agree with the "war" and I don't agree with stretching our troops so thin on the ground that their families see them for 5 months out of every 12. And yes, we know now that is what they do - but some of these guys signed up in differnt times. And then they have crap housing and poor family support (the wives support themselves and each other - I know that from experience - way better than the Forces do)

And then they are not treated with any dignity in hospital (less, even than "normal" folks)

As I said: it was the same in Kipling's day and it is the same now.

And the reaction of some people is predictable. And yet still disappointing somehow.

"it's not dumb to sign up to serve your country, any more than it is dumb to want to work in the community (sport in schools for example) to do your bit there.



If I dont like my new boss I can quit in one month with no financial penalties. If a soldiers new boss tells them to blow up the bridge they spent days building in the sweltering heat the bridge has to be blown up.

If I left without this notice period becuase she was telling me to do work I strongly disagree with I might lose a months pay and tarnish my professional reputation, but chances are I wouldnt be thrown into prison.

It does happen but it is very, very rare that people try to kill me. When this has happened at worst its been a stroppy teenager who claimed to have a knife who *threatened* to kill me from across the street. Soldiers, well we know that the people who want to kill them have all manner of unpleasant machinery and plans to bump off soldiers , they are trained to acheive their goals and are very commited.

Within reason I get to choose when and where I work. Aside from working hours which I have a lot of control over I get to go to wherever I happen to call home when I like.

Soldiers are given all manner of fancy kit which probably costs more than I earn in several years work, but if the 'T'shitrts Im given to work in fail its not likely to lead to injury or death for me. Worse still if I dont get a 'T'shirt what then?

Ohh that's right I just put on one I already have r in a dire emergency buy a new one for a few quid.




I know all the good things a life in the forces can do fo you, but your life can change or even end depending on the whims of someone who you dont even trust, but whose every order you have signed up to follow.

Signing up for that is way dumber than teaching kids how to catch or am I missing something?

And it's because of folks like myself, Sho and 'Tommy' who do sign up ... That you have the option of being quite opinionated and choose what you will or won't do.

And you know, not one day of my 21 years of military service did I give a rat's thought to the opinions of the soft-of-heart- folks. I just did what I thought was best for the bulk of my country, as decided by their elected leaders. I suppose it's a good thing that some folks in each generation will prove a bit more self-less, and be willing to give all for home, family and beliefs.

How much of that is true and how much hollow rhetoric?

If there werent equally patriotic, but easily mislead by the glorious folly of previous generations, counter parts for you in other countries then their neighbours wouldnt need them so much.

Ever heard of the term arms race? "We need nukes because they've got nukes".

Its easy to talk about the liberty that soldies fight for or preserve you're not so forth coming about the killings of civillians and taking of liberties of individuals or whole countries are you?

See if I "knew" that being in the army was only about wearing green and helping people Id have joined but I knew that you got sent to places where some people didnt want you to be and that these people would try to kill you because they felt so strongly about it.

Now you could say those people who are trying to blow up soldiers are bad people, but what about if those people were the Dutch Resistance or the ANC?

"I just did what I thought was best for the bulk of my country, as decided by their elected leaders. I suppose it's a good thing that some folks in each generation will prove a bit more self-less, and be willing to give all for home, family and beliefs.

Sounds good but if you read it and think its so self contradictory. You either followed orders or you thought one means you are not doing the other. Likewise it was about family, beliefs and and home or some elected official and what ever they wanted you to do, their words passed down through a chain of command where you little or no right to question if it was realy in the best interests of your family or country.


Like I said brave, selfless, valiant all true but dumb for promising to fight whatever fight some politician or another sets you up for. In almost any war people on both sides were as brave, valiant and selfless as each other just one side not as good at fighting (or with poorer equipment or less food or bad commanders) comapred with the vicotrs

There really is so much to say, so much simple and plain language that even you might understand. But in briefest, it is plain that you will always see any military folks as mindless killing machines, under the control of 'powers'.

But that's okay, most of us mature and see the real world for what it is, eventually.

Most people dont lie so often as those who cant reconcile reality with what they like to think.

Ive never used the phrase mindless killing machines to descibe soldiers so dont say I think that. Its a lie.

You said you thopught about what you were going to do and then said you did what you were told. One of those has to be untrue. Unless you thought "Im going to do what Im told"

Which is fine.

I just happens prove that history will teach us nothing.