h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

people don't join a peacetime army just in case they go to war. They join for loads of different reasons - and I'm pretty certain that 99% of them do not do it for altruistic reasons.

but the military, as you may have noticed, is not there just to fight and are more often than not supposed to be peacekeepers (and ambulance/fire-tender drivers on occasion)

Otto put his finger on it - it is a matter of relying on every part of the machine to do their job correctly. And don't forget: you don't ever have to follow illegal orders. (look at the fuss there is here right now about the government's announcement that they would use military jets to shoot down any airliner which had been overtaken by terrorists and was going to be crashed into a building/city - the military have said "actually, no we're not going to do that")

If there was going to be a war, there would be conscription.

Psycorp,

"You know, there's very little point in completely irradiating the vast tracts of land you're aiming to invade."

There's very little point to all out nuclear war, but it could easily have happened anyway. Even if we weren't bombed directly - which is a little hopeful - the fallout from any bombs landing on Russia had (if I remember what Bertrand Russell said correctly) an even chance of coming our way, depending on the wind.

Otto,

"He was interested in how sure control would have to be before giving him the order to fire. (This was before de Menezies was killed)."

And now we know the answer - hardly at all.

"For him, the ethical issue was not whether he should follow the order or not, but whether the order should be given in the first place."

Yes, I tend to agree, although not in the case of de Menezes (because from reading the descriptions, it seems pretty clear that if the shooters had been clear headed it wouldn't have happened - they shot him at point blank range repeatedly).

Incidentally, the thing about following only legal orders is very difficult indeed. If you were a soldier, you'd have to be awfully sure that an order was illegal before you refused to follow it. You'd be risking your entire career, and you might have dependents relying on you, etc. Also, in some cases, it's very difficult to know what is or isn't legal.

Bouncy,

"I don't think I agree with the idea that signing up for war is honourable and valiant. ... Anyway, I feel that if people join the army for moral reasons, out of some feeling of responsibility, in these times, well, they're probably misguided."

I think for some people it is. As I already said, I'm put slightly on my guard if someone has made the choice to join the army, but I can see that in some cases (maybe in many cases, I don't know many people in the army) this is definitely the motivation. I think there's this old fashioned, slightly conservative sense of honour and duty going on. Just so I'm not misunderstood, I don't mean to say that honour and duty are old fashioned and conservative, but that there's an old fashioned and conservative way of interpreting them. For me, I feel a moral obligation - a duty - to oppose war, to resist the power of the state and the interests of the wealthy, etc. I wouldn't join the army because from my perspective, they participate in unnecessary wars, act in the interests of the powerful over the weak (which is definitely what Iraq was all about), etc. Other people have a different analysis to mine, and act accordingly.

I will say that I definitely do not share the perspectives of yourselves, Bouncy and Dogster. But you are free to feel and believe them, and express them soundly as you have. The only folks I generally have a problem with are those who spout propoganda and a variant of hatred, without any actual knowledge or thought having gone into it.

Same here, Rev!!

Sho, have the military really refused (in principle) to shoot down hijacked aircraft? If so, I find that astonishing. I was under the impression that they wouldn't fire over major cities (what would be the point?) but might over sea or countryside.

I don't know enough about the de Menezies case, but it seems to me that, in principle, a soldier or police marksman would have every justification for shooting to kill and making absolutely sure if they're told that their target is a would-be suicide bomber. A wounded bomber could still set off the bomb, endangering the lives of the police officers and everyone else in the surrounding area.

Traditionally the people of this country have always supported the armed forces, and appreciated the job they do, perhaps having NI on our doorstep and bombs in our streets have made us more realistic about why we have an army.

TB and his lies succeeded in breaking that link between the army and the people. Thus, whilst few of us actually wish the forces ill, we struggle to support them in the way we have previously, and so servicemen and women return home to a muted reception.

Then there are the people who sit back and say they wouldn't do it, and pupport to be superior to those who do. Nowadays its very OK to sneer at patriotism, and to describe flying the flag as jingoistic, to suggest that signing up to serve is an option taken by those less gifted.

blicky talked of being able to walk out of his job if he didn't like it - well once you could, but nowadays - there's mortgages to pay and families to feed, and jobs are not that easy to find. You may not be tied legally, but effectively you are just as tied.

The armed forces have been sold down the river by this government, they are buying their own equipment because standard issue is so poor, and they're sent out without essential equipment because politicians don't understand about supply lines. TB has decided he'd rather spend the money on Trident, and Gordy seems to be following suit - which is against the nuclear proliferation treaty of course, but that probably only applies to Iran, and Pakistan, and India.

We don't need parades - we need men of consience in Downing Steet, and we need to increase the size of our armed forces, so we can help to keep the world a safer, more peaceful place. Not by invading countries who have stopped doing as they're told, but by supporting and policing areas of the world where law has broken down.

We need new boats in the navy, so we can effectively support, and transport our troops, and we need the planes to show Mr Putin that we are more than just George's babies.

And the Kipling poem that I'd say best applies is The Last of The Light Brigade - but I'm sorry I don't have a link.

Couldn't get the link to work:

The Last of the Light Brigade
1891
There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,
There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.
They had neither food nor money, they had neither service nor trade;
They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.

They felt that life was fleeting; they kuew not that art was long,
That though they were dying of famine, they lived in deathless song.
They asked for a little money to keep the wolf from the door;
And the thirty million English sent twenty pounds and four!

They laid their heads together that were scarred and lined and grey;
Keen were the Russian sabres, but want was keener than they;
And an old Troop-Sergeant muttered, "Let us go to the man who writes
The things on Balaclava the kiddies at school recites."

They went without bands or colours, a regiment ten-file strong,
To look for the Master-singer who had crowned them all in his song;
And, waiting his servant's order, by the garden gate they stayed,
A desolate little cluster, the last of the Light Brigade.

They strove to stand to attention, to straighen the toil-bowed back;
They drilled on an empty stomach, the loose-knit files fell slack;
With stooping of weary shoulders, in garments tattered and frayed,
They shambled into his presence, the last of the Light Brigade.

The old Troop-Sergeant was spokesman, and "Beggin' your pardon," he said,
"You wrote o' the Light Brigade, sir. Here's all that isn't dead.
An' it's all come true what you wrote, sir, regardin' the mouth of hell;
For we're all of us nigh to the workhouse, an' we thought we'd call an' tell.

"No, thank you, we don't want food, sir; but couldn't you take an' write
A sort of 'to be conbnued' and 'see next page' o'the fight?
We think that someone has blundered, an' couldn't you tell'em how?
You wrote we were heroes once, sir. Please, write we are starving now."

The poor little army departed, limping and lean and forlorn.
And the heart of the Master-singer grew hot with "the sconrn of scorn."
And he wrote for them wonderful verses that swept the land like flame,
Till the fatted souls of the English were scourged with the thing called Shamme.

O thirty million English that babble of England's might,
Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food to-night;
Our children's children are lisping to "honour the charge they made --"
And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade!

Otto (don't forget I'm talking about Germany here, not UK which might be different)

The government have come out and said that they will shoot down such airliners. The Military (Air Force in this case) have come back and said, basically, that it is not their job to shoot down innocent civilians and as far as I know it has now all been refered to the highest courts to decide or come up with a compromise that everyone can live with.

I also think we have to remember that in some cases (definitely not de Menezies) that when you're being shot at, or think you're about to be shot at or bombed, rationality doesn't often take precedence over self-preservation. Heat of the moment and all that.

As for not following illegal orders: there is hazy ground. However all soldiers are taught at the beginning, and they can keep up to date, on exactly the types of orders which might be on the borderline. We all know, for instance, that the order to shoot an unarmed civilian is illegal. The consequences for the individual soldier refusing to follow such an order might be dire but s/he has the ability to say "no". That, I have to say, was drummed into me repeatedly during my service.

Reference de Menezies.
This not comfortable, but perhaps it should be said...

Two incidents in my experience come to mind (small incidents, with small animals, not people) and I can quite understand what happened actually at the killing

My second incident is directly relevant: It was a mole that popped out of my garden (was having awful trouble with the blighters) while I had a spade in my hands. I chopped it and subsequently chopped and chopped... It was, I think fear that fuelled me - Fear, amounting to a 'cold panic' - "I've mortally wounded it - MUST make sure it's dead". Irrational? Perhaps, but it welled up unbidden and I was not, for those few seconds, in control.

So yes, I can understand the multiple shots. The morality? I'm undecided.
Accidents *can* happen.

A side issue: I'm of the opinion that those who have made mistakes of that general kind are the very Best People to put in charge of subsequent operations.
Take them to task, yes.
Take them out of service? Oh No, certainly Not (unless there are other aspects).

Otto, re the Menezes case, this story on the BBC yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7034430.stm

From the story:

He ['Ivor' an undercover police officer following Menezes, who it appears the police officers didn't know about] judged that he could have been a suicide bomber preparing to detonate a device - and that he needed to restrain him.

Two police officers followed Mr Menezes down to the platform
"I grabbed Mr Menezes by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms against his sides," he said.

"The right side of my head was against his torso, pushing him back into his seat. He appeared to stiffen up and he was not in a natural sitting position.

"I felt his head turn towards me and I was aware of a CO19 [firearms] officer kneeling on the seat to my left.

"I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear. I was hit by the shockwave of a firearm being discharged."

-- end of quote from BBC article

Personally, I think that tells a pretty shocking story about the firearms officer involved. Still, as the BBC article says:

"The case continues."

What is tragic is that the suspicious behviour that aroused so much interest was he got off the bus and then got back on again. What the idiot policeman failed to notice, or failed to report was the reason he got back on the bus was because the tube station was closed.

I hope those guys sleep at nights.

Will people please stop posting Kiplin poems. they are factually incorrect!

McKay says so..."Traditionally the people of this country have always supported the armed forces, and appreciated the job they do,

Or maybe they are both right?

Some people talk a good talk about sipporting our lads but when it comes down to it it was ever thus that some soldiers fell on hard times after their service was up.


"perhaps having NI on our doorstep and bombs in our streets have made us more realistic about why we have an army.

Actually having an uncle who served in Africa, NI and Germany did so did being raised by people who lived through WWII and served in Germany.

What they told me was dont join the army. You will get a baed pay and food. you will also be shot at and told to do a lot of things you really wouldnt do out of choice.

They told me we have an army for kiling people all the rest is just window dressing and ways of making the killing more effecient.

"Then there are the people who sit back and say they wouldn't do it, and pupport to be superior to those who do.

Who would that be then?

I have stood up and said i wouldnt do it and not pretended to be superior I have just pointed out that a single (one) choice of theirs is dumb.

You have pointed out how people who signed up have been sent by a liar to do a messy, thankless and dangerous task to return to sub-standard housing and muted response at best form the people they think they are doing it for.

Just explain to me how that's a smart move?


"blicky talked of being able to walk out of his job if he didn't like it - well once you could, but nowadays - there's mortgages to pay and families to feed, and jobs are not that easy to find. You may not be tied legally, but effectively you are just as tied.

No mortgage

No kids

Got lots of people offering me other jobs, infact Ive been into the job centre to find out about placing an add for more staff.

Sorry to po your flimsy little bubble of fantasy, but your going to have to find another way to show Im wrong, why not just go after the grammar and spelling its a much easier target even Rev Nick can manage that.





"We don't need parades - we need men of consience in Downing Steet, and we need to increase the size of our armed forces, so we can help to keep the world a safer, more peaceful place. Not by invading countries who have stopped doing as they're told, but by supporting and policing areas of the world where law has broken down.

Now I dont doubt that doing all those things would have an effect on things, but what would it be? Maybe we should stop making and selling arms that end up being used in places where the rule of law has broken down. Maybe if we hadnt been sending arms to Baghdad we could have just evicted Saddam by letter. Maybe if we spent the money we do on arms and the millitary on education people would be smart enough to work things out without fighting?

These are all maybes but after bod knows how many generations of young men and women volunteering or sometimes being forced nito hitting each other over the heads with everything from rocks to heat seeking missles we are still no nearer peace maybe ought to try another approach?

one love

..."Traditionally the people of this country have always supported the armed forces, and appreciated the job they do" Indeed and as the Kipling poem says - Its the thin red line of heroes when the guns begin to bark.' Its when they have to pay for them after the enemy's dead the public become less patriotic. Surely it's a disgrace that we need to have a poppy day to raise money for the care of war vetrans.

"They told me we have an army for kiling people all the rest is just window dressing and ways of making the killing more effecient." And was there some part of that you didn't understand ? Unbelievable as it may seem to you, some people are prepared to put others before themselves. Other people are prepared to tolerate anything to feed themselves and their families, other people see the forces as a route to a trade that is respected in civvy street.

"Then there are the people who sit back and say they wouldn't do it, and pupport to be superior to those who do.

Who would that be then?

I have stood up and said i wouldnt do it and not pretended to be superior I have just pointed out that a single (one) choice of theirs is dumb.

You have pointed out how people who signed up have been sent by a liar to do a messy, thankless and dangerous task to return to sub-standard housing and muted response at best form the people they think they are doing it for.

Just explain to me how that's a smart move?"

Well ~Blicky, maybe it's a gamble - if they're one of the ones who come back they'll have a better chance, or maye they liked the advert with the snow and the ski-ing, or maybe they thought it would be an adventure. Or maybe they thought it was better than getting knifed in the streets of London for being in the wrong gang.

"No mortgage

No kids" - ah of course. You're alright Jack.

"Sorry to po your flimsy little bubble of fantasy" - I wouild like to state now, in front of witnesses, that you do not feature in any of my fantasies.

"maybe ought to try another approach?"

Excellent idea - I remember that chap in front of the tank in Tianamen square, a superb example of courage to us all. Or the monks in Burma, marching against the Junta.