h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

So it should be illegal? It's about to be?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3868561.stm

I thought it had been illegal in Scotland for years...
I don't see how legislature on smacking will stop a parent that is actually harming a child from doing so.

I would've preferred a total ban because it sends out a clear message, so no-one can use 'punishment' as an excuse. But what's been done is still a good move.

F19585?thread=346239




az

http://www.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk/

one love

Taking a look at the site Scotland bit it says "Scotland's proposals to ban all corporal punishment of children up to their third birthday were dropped by Scottish Ministers on Friday September 13 2002, following publication of a report earlier the same day, opposing the proposal, from a Committee of the Scottish Parliament. The Justice 2 Committee had been scrutinising the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill which included this and other proposals to limit corporal punishment.

It appears that in the run-up to Scottish Parliament elections - to be held in May 2003 - no party was prepared to support the proposals, although individual Ministers, including the Minister for Education and Young People, Cathy Jamieson MSP and the Deputy Justice Minister, Dr Richard Simpson MSP, have previously been strong personal supporters of full abolition"

I certainly think a ban on hitting any child younger than 3 should have universal support, even if I do support smacking as appropriate in cirtain circumstances for a child able to understand why they are being disciplined.

Legislation is not the way to control parents, it is merely a way to make lawyers rich. Education is the way to stop child beating, that however would cost money.

The proposed minister for children is also to have diluted powers in England, concentrating on issues like childhood obesity.

Once again we get spin and decoration, instead of considered action.

If we're linking to other conversations on the same subject there's a good one here - F19585?thread=444383

Theres a difference ..a huge difference between the occassional last resort slap on the bum and beating/abusing a child..
Also we are not saints..no parent is perfect,as is no child..and I find it's usually those who don't have children and have never had to deal with the stress of a child being extremely difficult that are so quick to call those who have smacked a child a monster.I don't agree with smacking when angry..but of course on occassion he's pushed me to the limit and its happened..though he has never been harmed..the threat of a smack on the bum is usually enough..when being sent to the bedroom ,threatening to take away privelidges etc fails..the last time my boy got a smacked bottom was for swearing at me when i told him to go to his room for having hit his friend and then being very agressive once being told off .. but i don't like smacking..and will do what i can to avoid it.


'Banning' smacking would not solve anything at th moment..as those who do abuse it..and their children..will sadly continue to do so..if they dont care abiut their children ,why will they care about a law?..whats needed 'is' education..for parents..particularly young ones with little to no experience of children..and a lot more support! children need to be taught..and disciplined in one way or another..
and a 'tap' or 'smack' has always been 'one' of the many methods..(it should never be the only one)..maybe more education on the other methods is whats needed..whats being suggested as an alternative?

There's a lot of angsting about this in NZ - by and large the more right wing people have hysterics if anyone suggests banning smacking. But violent parents *would* I believe, be deterred by a change to S59 of the Crimes Act (NZ) which says parents may use "reasonable force". (Some parents have interpreted this as allowing them to use fence posts!

I have no children of my own.

When through my parents neglecting or being incapable of their duties my eldest sister and I became "responsible" for our younger siblings in the home I was terrible. I treated them repeatedly with the same violence and agression that I had on occasion been victim of and witness too.

I feel terrible about some of the things that I did to them. This is partly why I have avoided having children of my own.


It is why it saddens me when I read posts like yours Serephina. From other convos Ive got the strong impression that you *do* love your son.

I think the way you treat him from what you say does not fit your feelings as well as it might. I have no doubt that you are doing what you think is best and believe me he could do much worse than have you as a mum. You sound like a decent parent.

(you all know there's a but coming dont you)




Theres a difference ..a huge difference between the occassional last resort slap on the bum and beating/abusing a child..

We all think we know this and to be honest it works for a lot of families, but what happens when the last resort slap doesnt work. The parent is angry and frustrated. Even in decent parents at this stage the slap can turn to a punch...a kick...




Also we are not saints..no parent is perfect,as is no child..and I find it's usually those who don't have children and have never had to deal with the stress of a child being extremely difficult that are so quick to call those who have smacked a child a monster.


Most child beaters arent monsters, I dont think Im a monster. Thing is I broke my brothers nose once, blacked his eye, ... he was misbehaving severly, but the thing is my violence towards him changed NOTHING, except maybe his attitude to violence. Well if it hadnt already been set by his treatment from my mom.


I don't agree with smacking when angry..but of course on occassion he's pushed me to the limit and its happened..though he has never been harmed..the threat of a smack on the bum is usually enough..when being sent to the bedroom ,threatening to take away privelidges etc fails..

What are you going to do when a smack on the bum fails, dont answer me just ask yourself that one.

I think it is great that you dont agree with smacking in anger, but wouldnt it be better if you didnt agree with smacking at all. So on the occasions that he pushes you not just to the limit but beyond you hopefully wont be thinking of physical methods to get your message across.

the last time my boy got a smacked bottom was for swearing at me when i told him to go to his room for having hit his friend and then being very agressive once being told off

Essentially you the root of the problem was he was aggressive to you and violent to his friend so to counter act this behaviour and teach him better you...hit him


.. but i don't like smacking..and will do what i can to avoid it.

but you still do it.


'Banning' smacking would not solve anything at th moment..as those who do abuse it..and their children..will sadly continue to do so..

Seat belt laws, speed restrictions, poisonous waste dumping, animal cruelty, domestic abuse of the elderly... all these things are illegal but still go on should we scrap the laws that make them illega?

if they dont care abiut their children ,why will they care about a law?

I dont think any law can make someone who doesnt care start caring, but that's not what laws do anyway they codify the way that people ought to behave and allow for sanction when they act outside those limits.


..whats needed 'is' education..for parents..particularly young ones with little to no experience of children..and a lot more support!

Im lucky enough to be doing just that as one of my jobs at the moment.


children need to be taught..and disciplined in one way or another..

Maybe children have a greater need to learn and develope in a safe nurturing environment

and a 'tap' or 'smack' has always been 'one' of the many methods..(it should never be the only one)..maybe more education on the other methods is whats needed..whats being suggested as an alternative?

I obviously dont thnk it should be 'one' of the methods and I find it hard to believe that you havent been able to hear or find out about any alternatives.



Crime and punishment.
Look at a frail old lady pension day and her purse is full (ok not 'full') most people could eaisly take her money by force if we wanted to. What's stopping you?

Is it the thought of being caught (not likely) and if you are locked up.

Or is it empathy for how making her a victim will make her feel. Your wish to be a better person than that.

The first leson can be taught with violence and force alone. The second more important lesson requires neither violence or force and it is my contention that it is better taught without them.

one love

I think banning it is justified, if only because parents who are on top of their game won't find it necessary, and parents who are not are unlikely to use it responsibly and thus are the *last* people who should be employing it. Then of course, is there really ever any justifiable cause for punitivism? Parenting requires more disciplining of the self than the children, I strongly believe. I think a lot of harsh discipline is a result of parents not having done a mindful job from day one, and thus never really having had themselves established as the household authorities. A small child, whose body and thus actions can be physically controlled by an adult, should *never* be hit. I don't care what sort of 'problem child' a person has. There is always another way. A child who has grown up with responsible, involved parents can benefit from the discipline they receive. On the other hand, there is nothing to be gained from corporal punishment, and there is, thankfully, so much data to affirm that now. Unless the goal is really just to make a child obey, with no care invested in what sort of person the child becomes.

That became more of a rant than a point, but there you go

So if there is a total ban, what sort of punishment would be meted out to a parent who taps their kid on the bum when they are playing up in sainsburys (chose this because lots of witnesses)?

According to the lord chancellor the offence would carry the same sanctions as common assault, so a maximum of 6 months in jail - is that appropriate/proportionate?

Blicky, I think that from your posts you'd be an excellent parent.

Kelli, I do agree that if the punishment is a prision sentance, leading to the child being taken into care then it may damage the child more than the smack.

Intresting how now spanking is a sexualised activity and for many people a sexual activity, suddenly the talk is of 'smacking' children.

Blickybadger.. I am FULLY aware of other methods of teaching/disclipining children and I use them.. I was merely asking what those suggesting a ban on smacking are suggesting for those who may not!

And to suggest I am the root of my sons problem!We had trouble with Jo n his temper from when he was a baby! (hed get frustrated n hit the other kids as soon as he could sit up almost) n he certainly was never smacked then!
..and is rarely now..
I guess you dont know many 7 yeaar old boys..let alone any who are very bright and find it diffilcult to deal with their own feelings so are easily frustrated(especially when told off or criticised) and seem to go into a similiar 'red mist' as ADHD kids do..its not easy..especially as a single parent whos been in n out of hospital for various operations over the years and has BPD!

As for a slap turning into a punch or a kick..never in a million years! in over 7 years at the worst of times hes never had more than a slap on the bum..and never will..when hes pushed me beyond ive ended up in tears..nothing more..

you have no idea..

Good on you, Serephina - you must have a hard time, with an ADHD child, I honour your skills, and when I spoke about thinking a ban on smacking is a good idea, I realise that sometimes a kick up the bum may be necessary - but *never* abuse, as I know you know!

I wasn't sating he has ADHD..or if he dooes it's not been diagnosed..Just that he goes into a smililar thing where nothing you say can get through to him at times..hes a very bright sensitive ,emotional child.. and when you have to say to him look..why don't you do this that way instead..or it's not nice to say that to so n so..how would you feel? he can really go off on one as he finds it hard to cope with his frustration..ive talked to him, held him till he calmed down and could talk about it more sensibly, left him to it in his room, had him see a counsellor with his teachers co-operation,
grounded him,cried for hours after ive n ben able to get through n hes said really horrible things etc etc..but yes i've occassionally smacked his bum too..

Thankyou for not judging as quickly as some others Adelaide.

Kelli, something along those lines has already happened in Scotland.

Back in 1998 a father lost his temper with his 8 year old daughter when she became hysterical in a dentist's waiting room. He smacked her.

He was then reported by the practice staff to the police and social services. The upshot of this was that he was prosecuted and received a non-custodial sentence, he lost his job and career as a teacher and all three of his children were placed on the 'at risk' register.

It strikes me that undermining the social and economic fabric of that family was not a proportional response to a moments frustration and anger on the part of the parent.

----

In the light of all this I had better not mention the time when I was eight years old and being a right little b*gg*r, my Mum - a teacher - slapped me but miss timed it and managed to split my lip.

Did I deserve the slap? Yes.
Was the injury an accident? Yes.
Did I exploit the whole incident for months afterwards? Too right!

My nephew (and once in a while my son) have both shown that kind of a red rage thing when frustrated that they could not achieve something they were trying to do, so I know what you mean.
I saw a kindergarten teacher cope with a child who was traumatised, when he 'nutted off' one day (he is a refugee from a war zone, with limited English) by holding him very tight in a crisis intervention hold, until he calmed down, but then she was not his mother and had to deal with him only for a few hours a day.. I hope you manage to find strategies that really help!

Hi Adelaide

How nice it is to have someone who issues on site death threats demandspunishmentofthe innocentand raises "sons" whoissues threat of lesser physical violenceon a thread like this.

Your inability to grasp the issues in any meaningful way illustrates perfectly Serephinas point that more education is needed.



Serephina, my judgements of you have been restricted to saying you were a good mum and that you obviously love your son. I'd have prefered you to my own any day.

I did not blame you for your sons losses of temper and resorting to aggression, but sought to point out the contradictions in you using violence against him to persaude him not to be violent to others.

I can only assume when you say that I have judged you that you are reading something into my post that Im unaware of or that is not really there.

onelove