h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thanks for your responses, everyone. Apologies if this is a repeat thread - I don't recall seeing the earlier one, if there was one.

My reason for asking was something I was thinking about in relation to debating and arguing in general, but related to The Forum here. What was starting to puzzle me is how little attempt there seems to be to be persuasive - to change people's minds. To bring them round to your way of thinking, or, more realistically, to nudge them a couple of degrees in your direction.

It's interesting from a number of the responses (some flippant, I know) that some people start from a presumption that the views of others are fixed and immovable, and that 'debate' is something other than persuasion. Something like winning through force of numbers, point scoring by pointing out factual errors, or 'grandstanding' - aiming posts at readers rather than participants.

Sometimes the tactics used by people to 'win' debates (and I don't just mean here now) are such that they actually make it *less* likely that they will persuade an opponent.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try to understand an opponent's argument, try to demonstrate (gently) where it is wrong, and then show that a shared premise leads to your conclusion, rather than their's?

Well, in my limited experience here, there are only three researchers (that I've interacted with) who understand the principles of reason, persuasion and debate - they're worth naming; FB, Pedro & Kea. Far too many of the rest think winning an argument involves ridiculing, abusing and being condescending.

Their very language indicates why they are here; to "confront", to "oppose". IMO, these boards give them an opportunity to browbeat and belittle others in a way they feel they can't in RL. They approach message boards rather like RPG's - they have personas, cliques and backslapping sessions.

I'm as bad as any of them. I'm guilty of positing arguments I don't support in order to provoke at times.

H2G2 has taught me the value of researching subjects. I have learnt a helluva lot since I came here.

There's also the fun side. The Edited Guide is the best part of H2G2. I hadn't written on years and suddenly I have an outlet. Wonderful !!

I am unable to talk in RL about the things I talk about here. Some eubjects that I tend towards here dont come up much at home, at work or with my friends.

I can talk here despite what people melodramtically say *without* anyone being beat into submission.

I would love it if I said something wrong and people piled in with loads of counter arguments and facts that made me look like an no-nothing-numpty because it would mean Id been corrected and they would have enlightened me. I't has happened and each time Im grateful. Im much more grateful when someone beats me to it and posts something I would have and other people correct them though.

H2G2 debates to me are often like foxhunting. The belligerent in pursuit of the ignorant.

That's just the "debates" the rest of the site is useful, funny and entertaining in an unashamedly un-dumbed-down way.

one love

I don't always have time to join in the debates, but i do enjoy reading them.
It's easy to get stuck in a rut and think your own beliefs and arguments are the only ones that matter; and i like reading what other people say, particularly when it comes to politics.

I must say that some of the most rewarding debates I've had on here have been in peoples ps's.

The intellectual mass-debater threads sometimes, I think, suffer from a surfeit of differences. I.e. people who disagree on the minutest of points having a blazing row whilst the bigger issues are list beneath it.

Also, I agree with SWL in that the debates I've had on here have led to me doing more research about subjects I knew very little about and thus increased my knowledge a lot.
Although there is a downside to this with people using the argumentum ad googlum approach. There's a difference between references and just posting links!

I find some of the topical debates very interesting and have been known to use them as my source of info rather than a news item as however biased someone's view is, you can guarantee someone will come along with a bias in the other direction. I think sometimes you can end up with a fairly balanced view by contemplating the extremes.

I rarely take part in debates myself as sometimes I'm not 100% sure of where I stand and even if I do feel strongly, I lack the courage of my convictions. Sometimes I write long-winded, strongly worded posts validating my opinion, but then I'm too wimpy to hit the "post message" button!

So I sit back and watch. Sometimes I find it funny, sometimes I get frustrated with the way one party or the other expresses themselves, and I think "oh, get over yourself" or "stop being such a bully". I've unsubscribed from several religion based threads recently because, although I don't believe in any god I do believe in an individual's right to believe in their god, and all that "imaginary friend" and "voices in your head" stuff riled me no end! And because I'm such a wimp and couldn't bring myself to comment on the down-right arrogant, bullying and generally mean tone of some of the posts, I just unsubbed.

Deb *shaking in her shoes at having posted so much*

I like arguing with people about stuff, especially politics. Used to like arguing here about religion too, but it's not so much fun, especially with christians a) in general, and b) when SoRB's about. He's so belligerent that he puts me off (although I do agree with him most of the time).

In RL, most people aren't *that* interested in religion and politics, and, as someone mentioned, your friends tend to agree with you, so the opportunities for a proper debate, with people who disagree with you, are limited. It's funny, in RL the in-depth arguments/discussions I most often have are about football, and I can't be bothered here for the most part. Should I post from the pub?

I like exploring ideas, and the most acrimonious debate I've had here was (get this) about reintroducing big animals into the US. It went off into all kinds of tangents, and I had to really clarify how I thought about it. Two heads are better than one, and I find hootoo is a really good way to think about things; both by reading others' posts and making sure I don't type a load of bullocks when I actually contribute something.



And cheers SWL; if I only I could say the same

<<there are only three researchers (that I've interacted with) who understand the principles of reason, persuasion and debate - they're worth naming; FB, Pedro & Kea.>> (SWL)

You forgot meeeee!



az

I debate people to point out when they're being hypocritical. I am the "sworn enemy" of hypocrisy. I challenge hypocrisy wherever I see it.

Interesting responses. I debate with people on the internet for all of the above reasons.

I think kea summed it up best for me - I debate because I like to expand my mind. I like to hear from people with vastly different views from mine, but who are able to justify them. And I like to be forced to justify my own opinions, rather than just assuming I'm right.

Funnily enough, I'm not sure my friends particularly do have the same opinions as me - I guess I surround myself with people who *interest* me, which often means that they're very different in some ways. They don't necessarily have the same passion for debating some of those opinions, though, so I get my fix here instead...

I agree it can be frustrating when people descend into personal attacks and the like instead of justifying themselves, but in general I find that h2g2's a lot better than some places for getting a selection of genuinely intelligent and interesting debaters. But then, I'm ever the optimist, and always see the best in people...

I am increasingly asking myself this very question.

Petty arguments are a waste of energy.

It is good to see as many different view points on an issue as possible. Theoretically it should help us to understand one another better.

Hi az! Haven't seen you around much recently.

I enjoy reading debates on the Internet. I even read stuff about UK politics and other stuff which doesn't greatly concern me. I'm trying to cut down on my Internet time, though, so I've become a little more ruthless about unsubscribing from stuff which I don't need to read (only a little, mind you: my conversation list is still overflowing, and I still refuse to unsubscribe from any conversation in which I have posted). I tend to post only when I think that my view is not being represented by anyone else, or that I have something interesting to say. I like to chat occasionally too, which can happen in the context of a h2g2 debate. I usually keep it brief, though.

TRiG.