h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

If you're going to get personal, don't be surprised when people respond in kind. I especially like the way you have a caricature of a "lefty" and a "greeny" in your mind that you seem to have a beef with. Well done there.

Ste

Anyway.

With green issues, non-caricature strawmen real people strike a balance between convenience, cost and environment effects. Not many people would turn down a five quid ticket for that reason. People vary in how much they are willing to pay or do to offset their environmental impact. It's those who are blatantly willing to do nothing and are proud of the fact that get's my goat.

Ste

"non-caricature NON-strawmen real people"

"Not many people would turn down a five quid ticket for that reason"

Apologies for my alledged caricature of alledged "Greenies" and "Lefties". It was entirely unwarrented and petty and I withdraw all alledged allegations unreservededly. Any spelling mistakes not withstanding.

Still - "Not many people would turn down a five quid ticket for that reason" says it all really doesnt it? Why not?
Why not make a stand on that? Show your true colours and object! If you are an Eco warrior or a mildly interested bystander, then surely throwing your green morals out of the window for a fiver makes you a bit of a tart really doesnt it? Selling to the lowest bidder? (How ironic is that?)

I'm sure there are some people who would turn it down - "Ecowarriors" included.

But most people are pragmatic - as I said before, most people try to strike a sensible balance to live their life comfortably and affordably as possible without overtly harming the environment. Most people don't subscribe to the whole "green" thing, but just want to live a good life without harming others - that coincides with a lot of green principles. You cannot tell me you don't give a fig about the environment or what your live does to it?

Ste

Hi Ste

Yes. Sorry to say that I do indeed not give a fig about the environment or what my life(style) does to it.

I have said this before, and I will state it again - "I do not know which is the greater conceit, thinking you can destroy the planet or thinking you can save it"

Not sure who said it first, but I credit whoever it was with the credit for saying it. Or something like that.

So - any any hypocrites want to declare themselves? Do you use cheap flights but whinge on about saving the planet?

Well that's the thing. The people you are addressing on this thread are not ardent ecowarriors. They're just everyday people trying to minimise their impact in the face of cost and inconvenience. Then here's you coming along declaring you don't care about the environment and then having the gall to attempt to take the moral high ground with accusations of hypocrisy! That's not really very cool, dude.

I'll say it again cos it's worth saying: These people you are challenging are not ecowarriors/hippies/greenies, they are just folk like you and me who have decided to change a little because they are justifiably worried about the environment. This does *not* preclude them from driving a car, buying non-organic food, or even flying. So, it really isn't worth pursuing this line of attack.

This is why people driving Hummers around are so obnoxious - they are in effect saying a big "f--- you" to everyone else. As you pretty much did in this thread, I'm sorry to say. I'm not quite sure I understand this anti-environmentalist mindset that some people get. Is it because you feel like they want to force change on your life somehow? You certainly have some anger or resentment for some reason... Tell me if I'm wrong.


"I do not know which is the greater conceit, thinking you can destroy the planet or thinking you can save it"

Two things:
1) Then science is conceited? Or do you not *believe* that we can change the climate because there's a TON of evidence that says otherwise. Quite simply, science says you are factually incorrect on this point. You can choose to *believe* whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true. Is it a coincidence that this stance you have taken requires no effort on your behalf to change your lifestyle that you are clearly very happy with? I think not.

2) Caring about your environment is not necessarily "saving the planet". It can be much more local than that. I'm sure you would suddenly start caring about the environment more if a coal-fired power plant was built in your backyard. Don't you ever go to the beach and wonder if the water is safe? How much crap gets pumped out there? The air in some parts of Southern California (where I live) are so bad it takes years off people's lives.

The "environment" - whether you define it as the planet or your local area - is suffering because of human activity.

Ste

Blues - you make a good point, but you assume that the amount of land is a "conservative" or "zero-sum" quantity. It is with respect to area - but not with respect to its ability to produce food. Land today is in general more productive than it was 200 years ago...this is a fundamental mathematical flaw in that websites calculation.

So kea, my lifestyle registers a 0.7 and I still think the result is bogus (see above).

Hi Ste

"They're just everyday people trying to minimise their impact in the face of cost and inconvenience"

I do not have a single problem with anyone choosing to lessen their impact on the planet, and in fact I do admire their willpower.

"Then here's you coming along declaring you don't care about the environment"

Completely true. Guilty as charged. I have chosen to do nothing, but that does not mean that I have a problem with anyone who chooses to do otherwise.

"..and then having the gall to attempt to take the moral high ground with accusations of hypocrisy!"

No, I am not attempting to take any moral high ground at all. In stating my position honestly, I am obviously in the monority. It is the people who keep on about walking to work, tax cars off the road, stop flying, etc, etc who are claiming the "Moral" highground.

"This is why people driving Hummers around are so obnoxious - they are in effect saying a big "f--- you" to everyone else"

Really? If people choose to cycle or walk or drive an 8 litre tank, then surely that is their personal decision? Why is that saying a big "F you?" Is it really polarising people that much, and if so then how far away are we from people stoning hummers stopped at traffic lights? Whatever choices a person makes for their own personal transport, it is their concern only and nobody else's. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone else that they shouldnt drive this car or that one.

"I'm not quite sure I understand this anti-environmentalist mindset that some people get"

Why do I have this mindset? Simple really. I am absolutley sick to death of being preached to. You turn on the TV and it is full of people saying "You must do this and you must do that" because if you dont, then YOU personally are killing the planet. Government here in the UK is beating people over the head with two sticks - terrorism and the environment. They pass ever stricter laws that restrict personal freedom because "We need them to protect you from the Terrorists"
The mayor of London has a personal crusade of blind hatred for 4x4 cars, and is planning to increase the London congestion charge specifically for them. He also intends to take away their daily reduction if they live within the zone, purely because they drive a big car and not a milk float. So we are getting rafts of measures to make people behave in a certain way, because if we dont then "It is all your fault the planet is dying"

This to me is completely vindictive and there is absolutely no carrot to make people change, only ever increasing threats of higher taxes, fines and naming and shaming. It strikes me as just a new form of communism. Think as we think or we will hound you out of society. This is simply hardening my atitude to dig my heels in and the more "They" threaten me, the more I will resist.


"I do not know which is the greater conceit, thinking you can destroy the planet or thinking you can save it"

I stand by this comment because in the end, the planet will be fine with or without us. We cannot destroy the planet, only our species.
If we do, the planet will still be here, spinning away quite happily until a future generation of creatures climbs the greasy pole to dominate once again.

"The "environment" - whether you define it as the planet or your local area - is suffering because of human activity"

Maybe so. Having said that, even If I and my family stopped all activities that use energy or emitted carbon, it would not make one jot of difference while China, India, the US and other developing countries continue to pump out their current levels.
The other day, they said on the news that the south of England will in about 30 years have the same kind of climate as southern France has now.
Forgive me, but I am still trying to see the downside to having a warmer climate.

I think Ste has put the argument more elegantly than I ever could. Good old "Doc" with his "I'm all right jack" attitude.

"This to me is completely vindictive and there is absolutely no carrot to make people change, only ever increasing threats of higher taxes, fines and naming and shaming. It strikes me as just a new form of communism."

Are you actually a real person? Or are you just a collection of stereotypes?
Anyway, here's a bit of positive action for you.
Firstly, I'd look up Communism. Then I'd look up the temperature at which ice becomes water. Then I'd look up how soon that temperature will be reached in the polar areas. Finally, I'd look into buying a boat of some kind.

Does that explain why a rise in temperature could be a bit of a bad thing?

Hello plz can you help me in this prediction?....plz

Replying to the first post, I've got a 2.3 hectare footprint, so I need 1.3 planets.

There isn't much more I can do to get that down any further while living in this country. Sadly I'll be back working in London for 10 weeks after xmas, which although means using public transport still pushes my footprint up. It may be more efficient than a car, but I'm still choosing a 60 mile round trip every time I do a day's work.

I do try to chose 'in season' veg (how many kids know that veg has 'seasons'?), I do choose locally grown produce as much as I can, and my local farm shop now labels produce in road miles (or yards, most of the time) which makes things even easier, and the less packaging on a product, the more likely I am to buy it. I recycle as much as I can, and have about a third of the rubbish my neighbours have - in my street there are no more than two people in each property, and many have only one person there - and I travel by motorbike with my fella as and when we can - but with one child and five dogs between us that's not always easy...

I'm considering alternative ways of lighting and heating my home, but at the moment it's still all in the theory stage. I'm working hard to get to one planet, but knowing that I'm not going to be 'giving back' my spare planet to someone with less than one of their own, but to someone who leaves lights on all day long, eats food from the other side of the world, and chucks everything they don't want into the rubbish bin is rather depressing.

Cool. I have a nearly 19 hectare footprint. We'd need TEN planets!

To which my only reply is, let's get on with finding another nine then.

I live alone in a largish house, drive a LONG way to work (nature of the profession, partly), fly away on holiday when I can and long haul with work when I need to, and eat whatever it occurs to me to eat. And in fifty years' time I'll most likely be dead, so do please explain why I should be miserable now? For the sake of someone else's children?

SoRB

Yes, not to mention the whole damn biosphere...

Slight update - I couldn't complete the survey properly because it asks only how big your house is, not how many you have. Since I in fact will shortly have two medium sized detached houses to myself, this will probably increase my footprint even more (especially as I shall probably be driving the 90 or so miles between then fairly often). Anyone NOT hating me?

SoRB

I take back what I said on the other thread.

Glad to see you back to your curmugdeonly best.

What did you say on the other thread, Blues? Not something NICE about me?

SoRB

Well you've found it know, so you can make up your own mind.

SoRB