h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I found myself with a couple of hours to kill in Edinburgh today, so I wandered into the Royal Museum. What a fascinating place. Look at this : http://chernjie.blogspot.com/2006/05/millenium-clock-tower-of-edinburgh.html Look at it full size, it's fascinating.

But that's not why I'm posting. There were a lot of Primary Schoolkids there all having a great time in the science & technology section where there are various experiments the kids can play with. One experiment was thre chairs set into the wall and suspended from pulleys. One had a single action pulley, one a double action and one a triple action. The kids have to sit in the chair and try to lift themselves with the pulleys. Of course, on the triple action one they were flying up & down but no-one could lift themselves on the single action one. The kids ran to get their teacher and were asking how it worked. The harrassed young teacher took one look and said "Don't know" before going off to deal with another group of kids.

I was about to step forward and explain how it worked when an old guy beat me to it. He started to explain how it worked. The teacher suddenly re-appeared and hustled the kids away to another exhibit. I didn't think much of it, figuring they maybe had a schedule. A few minutes later though, a security guard and a receptionist went over to the old guy and started talking quietly to him. It ended up with him being escorted out of the building.

When I left, I stopped by the doorman and told him how disgusted I was at what had happened. He replied that they had had a complaint and therefore had to take action.

I am incredibly saddened at this. It could easily have been me getting thrown out, but I suspect I would not have gone so quietly.

Disappointing, sounds like someone didn't like having their authority 'usurped'. Unless there was a known history with that particular man, but that seems very unlikely.

I never thought of the "known history" bit.

In general society (or at least what one' hears about such in the media), seems to be way way too overprotective of children, I don't know if its moreso k now than previously it was, but it does seem all sense of children's ability to take care of emselves, and be able to cope with stufff...

I heard something a while ago from a primary school teacher friend of mine saying that there is a marked decrease in the number of men training and applying to be primary school teachers because the British society now views any bloke who wnats to work with children as being suspect. Dunno how true it is.

Then there's the proposed legislation to allow single mums to check whether their new boyfriend is a paedophile or not:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1950320,00.html
The interesting bit is in the following para:

"Mothers would have to have grounds for suspicion and would face tough penalties if they abused the information, including by making it public. Establishing a relationship with a single mother is a common strategy used by predatory paedophiles to gain access to children. Such men represent about a fifth of child sex offenders; the rest are relatives or otherwise known to the victim."

So according to this 20% of offenders try to gain access via such methods. 80% are relatives or otherwise know to the victim. Strange this doesn't seem to be the picture normally presented by the media which loves the dirty paedo on the corner trying to grab your kid.

mind you, no source is given for those stats.

This was discussed on the paedophile thread. I don't know if it was there that I read that airlines no longer seat unaccompanied children beside single men on planes.

It's a sad world.

ah, I've been deliberately avoiding that thread.

So your comment is news to me, although the idiocy of the general public in being lead by the media into believing something which is contrary to the good of society is sadly only confirmation of my more cynical and depressive views on humanity.

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I heard something a while ago from a primary school teacher friend of mine saying that there is a marked decrease in the number of men training and applying to be primary school teachers because the British society now views any bloke who wnats to work with children as being suspect. Dunno how true it is.
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It's not so much that all male primary school teachers are viewed as suspect, but more that there are issues of things like appropriate touch, and many men find that situation too stressful or they don't know how to manage it (the politics of it).

It's true in NZ that male primary school teachers are on the decline for that reason. But I remember when the number of male primary school teachers was low because the pay was so bad, so not having few male teachers is not just a recent thing

Personally I'm astounded they haven't closed the exhibit as being dangerous.

My daughter's fiancee is a newly qualified primary teacher, and you're right, it is very difficult to find male primary teachers because of the way its regarded.

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So your comment is news to me, although the idiocy of the general public in being lead by the media into believing something which is contrary to the good of society is sadly only confirmation of my more cynical and depressive views on humanity.
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I find it much more depressing that a quarter of all girls, and something like an eighth of boys are sexually abused before they are 18. There are very good reasons for why as a society we are in the difficult situation of not knowing how to manage relationships between men and children. The media has had a large part to play in that but most people still don't want to address the fact that sexual abuse of children is happening in *their* own families not some unknown bad family somewhere else.

I see the 'fear of strange men' thing as being a consequence of our inability to address sexual abuse, rather than just being a product of media hype. ie until we to address it adequately the issues of how men are to be in society are hard to resolve,. Men's rights in this situation, or the perceived public good are secondary to the rights of children IMO.

Are those numbers true? What do they refer to? Is this stuff like flashing and lewd comments, or direct contact? Is it specifically sexual abuse by adults, or does it include under 18s abusing each other?

The 1 in 4 figure for sexual abuse of girls is a long accepted number, and has been demonstrated in various studies. The study I am most familiar with is from the 80s/early 90s and so there isn't really anything online that I can link to. From what I remember it was physical sexual abuse (not flashing or comments), and I don't know the age range of offenders but certainly a 17 year old abusing a 5 year old would have been included.

There is more recent research showing those kind of figures, I'm sure you can find it online.

"I find it much more depressing that a quarter of all girls, and something like an eighth of boys are sexually abused before they are 18."

But until the perception of who does the abusing is corrected those stats won't fall.

"There are very good reasons for why as a society we are in the difficult situation of not knowing how to manage relationships between men and children."

And, I presume, managing the relationship between women and children.

What are the general problems for women relating with children?

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But until the perception of who does the abusing is corrected those stats won't fall.
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Agreed. I just don't think that focussing on how bad the media is, is the best thing to do. The media is made up of ordinary people, and ordinary people are generally in denial about sexual abuse and what to do about it.

It's true that the media has a role to play in getting accurate information out there - I"ve never seen a govt sponsored advertising campaign educating the public about sexual abuse in the way that they do about smoking or alcohol or drink driving etc.

Ordinary people need to get over whatever it is they are scared of and address the issues front on.

In Canada I believe a bill is being introduced to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16.

We are constantly told that abuse happens in families and predatory paedophiles are rare, yet I've met two, and one of them had been doing it for 20 years before someone spoke out, I also probably met a third whilst I was in hospital at age 15, certainly I was on his patch.

I think we have gone too far in ostracising men like SWP's museum example, when I was running a child's first aid group in St John's Ambulance we were warned about being alone with any child, "for our own protection." Eventually my wife and I stopped doing it because the legislation was getting in the way of wht we were trying to achieve.

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We are constantly told that abuse happens in families and predatory paedophiles are rare, yet I've met two,
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It's not so much that it only happens in families, as it is done by someone the child knows. So that obviously is family members, but also includes anyone the child knows that is in a position of authority and trust eg priests, scout leaders etc.

I agree that there are predatory sexual abusers. Their way of working is to get to know the child. The complete stranger kidnapping the child is the one that is rare.



We don't know what the problem was with the man in SWL's anecdote. He could have been a known problem in which case the staff probably acted appropriately. It may not even have had anything to do with sexual abuse potential, but more that he bugs people in general. Or it may have been an overreaction by staff and the teacher.


I'm generally in favour of teaching children how to be careful by giving them skills and knowledge. For instance as a gardener I think it's better to teach kids that there are poisonous plants and that one should never eat something from the garden or wild unless you are certain that you know what it is. Some people think the way to protect kids is to remove all poisonous plants, which works until they are in someone else's garden who doesn't have kids and then the kids are at risk because they haven't been taught appropriate caution and knowledge.

If we were able to be honest about sexual abuse, we could teach children how to keep themselves safe. Make children's safety and experience the centre of our attention rather than fear of 'paedophilia' (a term I dislike because of how oxymoronic it is).

Unfortunately many children who have been sexually abused and have told an adult have not been believed. Perhaps that is why the pendulum has swung so far the other way because those children are now adults living in a different time.

Good point about the pendulum swinging and probably contains more than a kernel of truth.

To be honest, the thought that this guy might be "known" really did not occur to me, but now that it's been pointed out I find myself conflicted. It all looked perfectly innocent to me and the chap was just doing what I was about to do myself.

Morning SWL

Some time ago I visited Barcelona, and was about to take a photo of a local child feeding pigeons in a square, only to be pounced upon by my partner who said "You can't do that , you must ask the parent first!"

We discussed this on HooToo and I was surprised , and depressed by the number of posters who agreed with her. As I said at the time, my approach was totally innnocent - I was not lurking in bushes with a long telephoto lens, just a tourist looking at a happy scene and wanting to capture that moment. Not ask permission and get a 'posed'shot.

Because I too could have explaianed to your example kids, I would have been just like you. It would not have occured to deny the children an explanation. In your example they learned nothing at that point, except to be wary of men. Not a good lesson in my book.

The posts revealing that 80% of abuse is carried out by family members or adults the child knows show how crully unfair it is to label all men as potential sexual predators. It also throws light on the way we bring children up to have this view.

Admittedly, I was a child some 60 years ago, but even then we somehow"new" which old chaps too avoid, and apart from being told not to accept sweets from strangers we got on with our lives. I really don't believe that the incidence of abuse is much greater now than it was then. It is parents view of it which has grown. ( but I stand to be corrected)

IMHO the 'obsession' with protection has led to a stunting of choildrens growth, look at the kids being driven to and from school, only to come home to PC's and TV.

Sad.

Novo

Unfortunately the situation does not restrict itself to males in authority. I have come to question occaisionally how my own actions may be completely misinterpreted by an outsider.

Let me explain, you may wish to get a brew because it could be a long one.......

I have an autistic stepson who is soon to be 9 who spends around 40% of his time with us and the rest with his mum. His mum and I have an ok relationship and she is content with the fact her son accepts me(even in his way loves me as an adult he can turn to) and that he and I have the relationship that we do. He is a delightful child whose autism affects his language and social skills. He and I have a wonderful relationship and I'm often mistaken for his natural mum when we are seen together, I've fostered this close relationship with him over the last three years and love him as if he were my own.

But he is now of the height that should he run to me and give me a hug his face is directly in line with my somewhat ample chest. He's very affectionate and will often cuddle up and as happens sometimes his positioning of hands/face etc may be deemed inappropriate even though it is completely innocent on mine and his part. His mental age is probably around the 4-5 mark with regard to social situations and he's merely being affectionate and receiving a cuddle of affection in return from me.

I do occaisionally concern myself that this could be misinterpretted by outsiders as inapproriate on my part and yet on several counts I do not wish to discourage our 'parent' to child displays of affection.

1) his mental age is lower than his years and as such he requires the closeness of contact that maybe a 'normal' (I hate to use the word) 9 year old boy would maybe shy away from
2) why should we not be able to enjoy a closeness of a parent child relationship just because I'm not his birth mother.
3) to try and explain why he can't do something would be very difficult and confuse him no end. Both his Dad and I (and his mum) are aware that as he matures he will have to be educated in what is acceptable behavior with regard to girls etc.
4) as his body matures we will have to explain things such as wet dreams, his voice breaking etc. His autism will mean that he may become distressed at these things without careful explanation e.g. he may think he has wet the bed or that his voice is actually breaking.

It's a sad state of affairs when I begin to question my own natural mothering instinct for a child who I love dearly (even though he is not my flesh and blood) because I'm worried what an outsider may make of the relationship....

kea: >I'm generally in favour of teaching children how to be careful by giving them skills and knowledge.<

A quick, humorous, but also instructive story about this. I was resting on a park bench during a long bicycle ride one fine afternoon when a young mother strolled by with what I'd guess was a four or five year old lad in hand. I smiled, tipped my bicycle helmet, and said good day to the pair. The mother returned my greeting. They were no more than two or three paces past my bench when the young lad piped up brightly (and loudly), "Mommy, was that man a *stranger*?

Humorous, perhaps (I thought so) but it also raises a serious point: young children don't even fully understand the terminology adults use to describe potential dangers. And children are notoriously gullible. One of the most vile tricks perpetrated by abductors is to tell a child he has lost his puppy and needs help finding the puppy. How many children could resist such a ruse?

Another brief story, sad to me: having a granddaughter of the age when she is just learning to use the "potty" and still needs a bit of assistance with the "paper work," I, even as a grampa, am very reluctant to get involved, deferring to grammy in that department. If the dear child's mother should ever ask, "has anyone ever touched you on your private parts, dear" I certainly don't want her to say, "Yes, grampa did!" Yikes! It can be a scary world for a man these days.