A Conversation for The Forum
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
swl Started conversation Sep 3, 2006
Following a TV programme where the question was broached, I'd like to throw the question open to the floor.
Is it time to negotiate with Bin Laden?
As I understand it, Al Quaeda want all western forces to pull out of Iraq & Afghanistan and evacuate all Westerners from the Middle East.
Is this reasonable or even feasible?
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office Posted Sep 3, 2006
Does anyone really know what Al Q want?
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
swl Posted Sep 3, 2006
"withdrawal from Iraq, ending support for Israel, and military disengagement from the Middle East"
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/942belym.asp
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
2legs - Hey, babe, take a walk on the wild side... Posted Sep 3, 2006
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Alec Trician. (is keeping perfectly still) Posted Sep 3, 2006
how can you possibly negotiate with a group whose stated aim is your ultimate destruction and to "convert" the entire planet into an isl*mic state.
They can negotiate with the sole of my boot!
squish 'em as quickly as possible.
alec.
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Ste Posted Sep 4, 2006
Why the asterisk in the word "Islamic", Alec?
~
Hasn't the US already withdrawn their military from Saudi Arabia - wasn't that Al Qaeda's original goal??
~
Al Qaeda may have been at one point in history an organisation with a leadership and a command structure. But now they seem to have mutated into something more. They are now more of an idea that spurs acts of terrorism without any instruction from anyone above. No amount of military action can stop this. You can take away all our personal freedoms and the idea will still be there. Lock us all up in a police state, whatever, you cannot squish Al Qaeda.
Here's my take on it: Ignore them.
People who choose to follow this idea extreme Islam act like children throwing their toys out of the pram every now and again, demanding attention. And we wring and hands and lavish attention on it all. All we have done in the last 5 years is inflate extreme Islamic egos. Look what happens when a new AQ tape is released: The media and the government goes way over-the-top and glamourises their whole struggle and broadcasts it for free globally. I bet AQ are laughing their heads off at us.
We should not compromise. We must not torture. We should not censor, all freedoms taken away from us in the past five years must be reinstated. We must stop these lame knee-jerk reactionary responses to potential threats [I'd like a drink on a plane someday.]. We need a clear demonstration we are NOT afraid of these pathetic creatures.
The right-wing want us constantly cowed in fear and I'm fed up of their cowardice. The way to deal with Al Qaeda is to make them realise they are nothing in the scheme of things. They will fade into history.
Ste
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
sprout Posted Sep 4, 2006
More prosaically, it is impossible to negotiate with them as they do not have a centralised hierarchy or common agenda.
Most analysts would argue that they are at most a loose coalition of fortune, mixing local issues with much more strategic issues.
If, hypothetically, Bin Laden, came to an agreement along the lines of you give us Iraq and we'll give you Afghanistan, he would have no way of making it stick.
Ps - Ste - Alec puts asterisks in things he doesn't like (half the planet) - so Fr*nce, I*lamic, spr*ut, etc. Nice habit.
sprout
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Woodpigeon Posted Sep 4, 2006
I'm reminded of the situation regarding oil workers in Nigeria when I hear this. The rebels kidnap oil workers. A couple of days later money is handed over. The oil workers are delivered back safely. Then a few days later more oil workers are kidnapped. And on and on and on.
The big problem that many countries truly struggle with is negotiating with unrepresentative groups that have bombed and maimed their way to the negotiating table. No democratic mandate, not even a rational argument, just "do it or worse will come to you". It happens, of course, but normally only after a period of time when the unrepresentative become the representative: it's likely that Hamas and Hizbollah are beginning to fall into such a category in the Middle East. It's difficult to argue whether Al Qaeda have such a mandate, given that all they have in common is a hatred of the West and a propensity to use whatever means they can muster to attack the West.
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Otto Fisch ("Stop analysing Strava.... and cut your hedge") Posted Sep 4, 2006
And Woodpigeon summed up what I was going to say
It's one thing talking to Hamas, Hezbollah, and Seinn Fein, because like it or not they have proven democratic support. Although Irish Republicanism is a minority view in Northern Ireland, Seinn Fein have shown that (along with the SDLP) they are the people's approved representatives to negotiate on behalf of that political aim.
I doubt very much that Al Qaeda's positive programme enjoys very much popular support. It's one thing cheering them on as they attack the US and the West as one of the few groups who does take on the 'great Satan', but it's quite another to actually support a fundamentalist Taliban-style state across. I've no great understanding of the Middle East beyond what I read, but I would be amazed if there was majority support for a Theocracy.
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
badger party tony party green party Posted Sep 4, 2006
There cant be any negotiation with a *religiously* inspired group such as AlQ. They are obviously in a certain respect as mad as march hares.
QWhat can be done is for the west to speak properly to and about Islam in general and muslims who live with us and would like to live more like us.
Why not help people install democracy rahter than enforce it?
I dont know a single firm that makes money by breaking into peoples houses, making a huge mess ripping out the exsisting windows, fitting double glazing and then asking for payment.
Why not take a peolpe who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones attitude to culture?
In the UK alone there are thousands of children living on the streets rather than live in homes where they are constantly at risk of all manner of abuse. We run a care system that to a certain degree helps pimps turn young women into drug dependant prostitutes. There is a *culture* of abuse in the UK.
Yet when what turns out to be a loving father takes steps to reunite his children in a home where they all want to live the initial accusations are of "forced amrriages" and abduction.
Does anyone here think if Catholic Italian had "kidnapeed" his daughter the press in the UK would have mentioned the mafia, interviewed someone from the vatican or sought the opinions of Icecream parlour owners?
No the BBC would have more likely spoken to a spokesperson from Fathers 4 Justice or Families need Fathers.
Muslims are treated like second class citizens and their various cultures are unthinkingly denegrated at every turn. Im not saying there are no probelms with some aspects of what can be called muslim cultures, but any serious discussion is seriously hampered by the resentent built up by the casual racism that is a barrier to intergration.
one love
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Mister Matty Posted Sep 4, 2006
"We should not compromise. We must not torture. We should not censor, all freedoms taken away from us in the past five years must be reinstated. We must stop these lame knee-jerk reactionary responses to potential threats [I'd like a drink on a plane someday.]. We need a clear demonstration we are NOT afraid of these pathetic creatures.
The right-wing want us constantly cowed in fear and I'm fed up of their cowardice. The way to deal with Al Qaeda is to make them realise they are nothing in the scheme of things. They will fade into history."
Sorry, but I think this would be a ridiculous response. Islamist terrorists have killed thousands in New York and Iraq, hundreds in Spain and their ideology has informed terrorist groups such as Hizbollah and Hammas. They are not "pathetic" (that's rather like people who call terrorists "cowardly", it's an attempt to dismiss very dangerous people) and they are certainly not "nothing" in the scheme of things. I agree that their ultimate aim is impossible - even if the Caliphate were restored, Islamic fundamentalist rule was so unpopular in Afghanistan that the idea that it could control such a huge area without strife is laughable - but that doesn't make their determination and methods any less dangerous.
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Mister Matty Posted Sep 4, 2006
"Does anyone really know what Al Q want?"
Their ultimate intention is to force non-muslims from "Islamic" lands (including historically islamic land such as Spain) and to recreate the enormous Islamic caliphate of the middle ages under one government. It's basically a movement to restore a long-lost empire.
Theoretically, once the empire is restored they can form a superpower army and fight a holy war. I'm not 100% about whether this is a specific end-intent of Al-Quaida's plans, though.
Because Islamists tend to believe in a specific reading of Islam, and because Islam is a 1000 year old religion with various interpretations a "civil war in Islam" would be necessary to remove unwanted elements.
Their short-term aims are to force the withdrawal of Western forces from the middle east and incite Islamist revolutions in the governments of the region to begin the process of restoring the caliphate.
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
swl Posted Sep 4, 2006
Well, I have no problem with their "Caliphate" in the Middle East, but they'll just have to wait until we've finished stealing the oil
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Ste Posted Sep 4, 2006
"Sorry, but I think this would be a ridiculous response..."
To not let terrorists compromise our democratic ideals and freedoms is ridiculous?
Should we be afraid of these people? Are you arguing they are not pathetic because they've killed some people? I'm not trying to dismiss them, just put them in their rightful place. They are crazy religious nutters.
Unfortunately, the media found terrorism is more lucrative than food scares, and the current crop of politicians in the US are also religious nutters.
Ste
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
badger party tony party green party Posted Sep 4, 2006
Zagreb I think we can all agree that terrorists are dangerous, cerainly in terms of loss of life but almostl cerainly not in terms of our way iof life.
Despte the efforts of terorrist groups in South Sfrica the white minority did manage to carry on as if they had some God given right laord it ovet the majority of the countries population.
I think the biggest danger to our way(s) of life in the West are our goverments responses to the threat to life from terrorists.
I cant expect there are many people who responded to the inter christian violence in the UK by being suspicious of people with Irish accents or who were catholic. If they found themselves being fearful of Eamon Andrews then they were just idiots.
Yet You Zagreb have given up on thinking it seems when you blame deaths in Iraq on Islamists.
Why use the word Islmaists?
Yes these people are Muslims but the ideologies and aims of insurgents and other armend fighters are so different across the country of Iraq, the midle east and potential terrorist requits in the west that they have no reason to band together as Islamists...unless...
Unless we inm the West give that idea creedence by talking as if we see them simply as Muslims. Why is the focus of our attention through the media and the media we choose to patronise on the people who died in New Yrok, Madrid, London etc...etc...
Not on the people of Iraq who are killed daily by the people we choose to lump together under the banner Islamist or Al Q.
I think someone of Pakistani origins would be less inclined to join a group that kills fellow Muslims aswell as what some Muslims choose to call the enemy. Sadly we mange to use language as if the war on terror is an "us andainst them" situation.
When it should be a war between those in favour of choice and thiose who want to imply their will. Again, sadly those carrying out the war against terror have manged to get themselves (and thus us too) into the same category as those they choose to call Islamic terrorists.
We need to stop voting for these war mongerers and paying money to the members of the fourth estate who are all too wiling to pass o their lies.
It is how we react that is important, niot what we say to Al Q. They are funadamwentlists and their minds will not change their actions might when they see that their terrorism and their sacrifice is utterly futile.
one love
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
Alec Trician. (is keeping perfectly still) Posted Sep 4, 2006
That hardly depicts a compromise of our democratic freedoms and ideals ste.
The government are more than welcome to listen to me on the phone or search my bag. I just wish they would drop these stupid anti-profiling laws that say you can't question more than three arabs/muslims per planeload of people until you've searched these three grandmothers....now THAT is ridiculous.
alec
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
badger party tony party green party Posted Sep 4, 2006
Why is it?
I think I know what you answer is Alec but I dont want to be too firm in my assumptions. So Id *really* like to know.
Why does it make sense to profile suspects for searching?
Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
swl Posted Sep 4, 2006
I agree with some of what you say Blicky, but I can't agree with
"They are funadamwentlists and their minds will not change their actions might when they see that their terrorism and their sacrifice is utterly futile."
They are fundamentalists, yes, which means they will never rest until the world reflects the fundamentals of their religion. Enormous losses will not deter them as this feeds their "victim" status. The more they cry "victim", the more recruits they get, so losses are of absolutely no consequence to them. A mindset that worships death, rewards death and uses suicide as a tactic is not going to be deterred by losses. If the West hesitates, shows weakness or backs down, this will only encourage them to think they are winning and step up their attacks.
I don't believe we can negotiate with extremists who worship death and who cannot, by the flawed logic of their Holy Book, compromise.
What we have to show, by deed and action, is that there is a better way. If they choose to abide by basic human rights, stop oppressing people, allow people free choice, they will achieve far more. A coalition or "caliphate" of peaceful, prospering, progressive Middle Eastern Countries is a marketing opportunity for the West.
If they continue to behead old men, hang rape victims and blow up innocent people, they must be hunted down and exterminated.
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Can we negotiate with Al Quaeda?
- 1: swl (Sep 3, 2006)
- 2: TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office (Sep 3, 2006)
- 3: swl (Sep 3, 2006)
- 4: 2legs - Hey, babe, take a walk on the wild side... (Sep 3, 2006)
- 5: Alec Trician. (is keeping perfectly still) (Sep 3, 2006)
- 6: Ste (Sep 4, 2006)
- 7: sprout (Sep 4, 2006)
- 8: Woodpigeon (Sep 4, 2006)
- 9: The Doc (Sep 4, 2006)
- 10: Otto Fisch ("Stop analysing Strava.... and cut your hedge") (Sep 4, 2006)
- 11: badger party tony party green party (Sep 4, 2006)
- 12: Mister Matty (Sep 4, 2006)
- 13: Mister Matty (Sep 4, 2006)
- 14: swl (Sep 4, 2006)
- 15: Ste (Sep 4, 2006)
- 16: Ste (Sep 4, 2006)
- 17: badger party tony party green party (Sep 4, 2006)
- 18: Alec Trician. (is keeping perfectly still) (Sep 4, 2006)
- 19: badger party tony party green party (Sep 4, 2006)
- 20: swl (Sep 4, 2006)
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