h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

So anyone else been following this today? Up to 80 seats for Hamas in what has been reported as a very well run election.

But then, no Sharon, no Fatah government. Is this as undefined and 'new ground' as it appears? Are we on the edge of a forced make or break for these two countries? Or will it just continue to rumble on as it has done for so long? Hamas are saying they have no interest in peace with Isreal and Israel is saying they cannot deal with Hamas. Doesn;t sound good to me. But then I only have a few news reports to go on!

It's an important step for boths; the Palestinians en Israël.

Bóths states are blackmailed by extremists and this is a step in the good direction.

What, to *elect* the extremists?

Unless Hamas are prepared to do a *massive* u-turn on negotiation I cannot see how this is anything other than dreadful news of the highest order.

Oh flip, I meant to post the BBC News link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650788.stm

From that:

"Hamas official Mushir al-Masri warned that Hamas would not hold peace talks with Israel.
"Negotiations with Israel is not on our agenda," he said.
"Recognising Israel is not on the agenda either now."

But another official, Mahmoud Zahar, told AP news agency that Hamas would maintain February's ceasefire if Israel did the same.
"If they are going to continue commitment to what is called quietness, then we will continue," he said.
"But if not, then I think we will have no option, but to protect our people and our land." "

Hmmm it certainly dont osund good to me.

>>> then, no Sharon, no Fatah government. Is


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=21717

Parallel elections at Ain Hilweh refugee camp in South Lebanon elected Fatah... The Palestians are not only oppressed in the occupied land...



W

Somehow this result doesn't come as a great surprise. Surely always when you have a deep-seated conflict, and then you have an election, it is the more extreme parties who get the votes. Whilst the situation is not exacty co-terminus, it is similar to what has happened electorially in Northern Ireland, and therefore not a surprise to me.

As to what happens now. God knows!

Well, first it is a great shock, but it can also be a great opportunity.

Why.

Because there will only lasting peace and security when extremists at bóth sides were confronted with the harsh reality of compromises.

Both countries suffer by extremists in their own parliaments.
Rabin was killed by an Israèli.

But, of course, there are conditions to allow a party to have it´s say in negotiations.
Hamás hás to eliminate certain statutes, before it should be allowed to be treated by the world as a legitimate negotiator. If it would be treated as such without changing it´s statutes, than the whole world
can see that terrorism wins in the end.

But if Hamas changes it´s position from the very beginning, then it will be an opportunity.

There can be no peace without colonists and Hamas. They both must be confronted with political reality by having their say. By obligation to choose for compromises and which.

I disappointed but not surprised. I suppose its progress at least that the Palestinians are represented by who they want since I doubt that this election has seen a change in their attitudes.

My hope is that, as Sharon appeared to find out to some extent as time went on, they'll come to realise the position they're taking is simply going straight down a dead end.

Sadly there's probably going to be a lot more killing before attitudes change. Decades for a solution?

I just hope that this means the "two state" solution does not get dropped.

THe Isreali election will be really important now.

I found it ironic listening to Jack Straw say you can't have democracy and violence err invasion of Iraq?

I've read some interesting stuff about *why* Hamas have done so well.

Here's an interesting parallel - when the Nazis won the 1933 German elections was it because all of Germany wanted to re-arm and go to war? No, it was because the Nazis promised all things to all people - a full-spectrum populist platform ("National Socialist German Workers Party") with the extreme-right stuff the ultimate intent. Hamas don't just play the card of being the armed-group who want to eliminate Israel. They also play the card of being the "socially responsible" party who rebuild Palestine and the party of low-corruption. Fatah are notoriously corrupt and that plays against them. Like the Nazis, Hamas steal leftist policies for far-right aims (although unlike the Nazis there doesn't seem to be any leftist political movement in Palestine - I'd reject those movements that "fuse Marxism and Arab Nationalism" since you can no more fuse Marxism and Nationalism as you can fuse Marxism and Capitalism and they are doubtless no more than fascistic parties who talk an "anti-colonialist" line that is merely anti-Western and anti-Jewish).

If the West and Israel are serious about getting Hamas out of power then they must work with Hamas' political rivals in Palestine and that means making sure moderate partys can grab the populist vote. If the centre doesn't grab popular opinion then the fringes are always ready to take it and that's when peace becomes impossible.

As for the near-future, who know, but I think the Palestinians have shot themselves in the foot and if Hamas decide to prosecute their race-war then the depressing fact is that a hell of a lot of people who don't want them or their party will be on the recieving end of what happens.

>>If the West and Israel are serious about getting Hamas out of power then they must work with Hamas' political rivals in Palestine and that means making sure moderate partys can grab the populist vote. If the centre doesn't grab popular opinion then the fringes are always ready to take it and that's when peace becomes impossible.<<

I am astounded that anyone can entertain the hope that Israel will "work" "with" any Palestinian group... You seem to have forgotten that Hamas are undeclared heroes to the millions of Palestinians worldwide as well as their "friends". They are extremists on the front line of the struggle and hold the world's Palestian population hostage to a sense of guilt that they are not risking themselves yet stand to benefit if Hamas is successful in its endeavour. No Israeli government can afford to work with any Palestinian group. Whenever they have seemed to, there has always been another agenda under the table to satisfy the hardliners and hawks. Israeli policy is as extremist as anything the Palestinians have shown - and have infintely more power to boot.

My question is whether the rulers of Israel in the last fifty years will ever be held accountable for their actions - just as the Nazis were so efficiently hunted down.

Too many evil and ugly acts have been committed by both sides for this to be a situation that can be comprehended by an objective look at the political stances. The hatred, disgust and blind fury runs too deep through the generation and boils in the arteries of those living the reality. Hamas may or may not back down but I doubt that will happen until they become as corrupt and morally bankrupt as Fateh first - and that is unlikely to happen in the near future.

Just my worth...

W

>>> if Hamas decide to prosecute their race-war <<<

I am really surprised at you, Zagreb. You seem so well read and so "au fait" with the details on the ground. I would have expected you to twig from the outset that this has *zero* to do with race and *all* to do with land...

W

Good points Zagred. I think it's exactly what George bush and the repiglicans have done - promised better government and lower taxes and national defense, ultimate goal being far right fundamentalist christian state.

There are three things that may happen when an extremist party finds itself in power. In the first instance, they might moderate their stance when they realise that running a nation requires more than just rhetoric. In the second instance they put their rhetoric into practice and end up causing chaos. The other option is a civil war in the authority and complete breakdown.

In general what a country needs in a government are moderate pragmatists: people that can keep schools and hospitals functioning, street crime down, roads maintained, funding coming in from international donors, trade relationships developed, etc. etc. Extremism never leads you in this direction. Propaganda and hatred can only get you so far.

The only point of hope I see is that Hamas, unlike the Nazis, do not have the resources to follow a strongly extremist and militant course. They are hamstrung militarily and badly depend on international funding to keep the authority working. If Hamas follow the course of moderation then they might actually do quite a good job. Fatah suffered because it did not have control and had corruption problems. Hamas has a large mandate and probably would be able to negotiate strongly and fulfil its side of the bargain much better than Fatah ever could.

As much of a surprise as it may be too many, who tend to view the Palestinians as evil people bent on the destruction of the Jewish State, the large majority of Palestinians are concerned with exactly what occupies our time-activities of daily living, getting a good education for the children (they have, BTW, one of the highest rates of post-graduate degrees as a people), getting good health care, etc. But since it seems that they have not been "granted" the right we in the "free world" so like to give others-that of throwing off the chains of oppression-they are not allowed to vote for a party that has demonstrated that they do not bow to Israel and the "International Community's (i.e the Quartet of US, EU, Russia and Kofi Annan.) Woodpigeon, part of what you list below as services required of a government, Hamas has already been providing with a far better record than the PA. Moustapha Barghouti, who won election on the West Bank, also established highly successful medical services there which have been running, despite the constant harrassment of the Israelis for over 20 years.

But, let us not forget that almost half the people did vote for Fatah. Some because they are the beneficiaries of the corruption and others becasue their overriding desire is to see a secular state. That this will ever be obtained through Fatah is what was really the issue.

I don't know about you all, but the "masturbating to our gloriousness" that took place in the US after the Iraqi elections was more than one could stand. What then is the problem with another democratic election with an equally good turnout-both of which shame the lazy, ignorant citizens of the US?(51.3% in 2004)

On the one hand we have a people (the Iraqis) voting in the widely heralded democratic elections:
Thousands of Iraqi and American troops were stationed at each polling place to guarantee the safety and accessibility for the voters;
Iraqis worldwide (Expatriate Voters in the US could be American citizens and had only to prove that their father was born in Iraq to qualify) were allowed the vote (the US no doubt hoping that those who have experienced the "great democracy" first-hand would help sway the vote toward a less "Islamic one." We don't seem to have the same mentality about avowedly Christian leanings); a much larger percentage of voters came out than in this country
They still voted overwhelmingly on religious lines and the elected officials are who were only just over a year ago "the bad guys"

On the other hand we have another people (the Palestinians) doing essentially the same-with major differences:
The only troops the Palestinians saw were Israeli-military checkpoints blocked free access to voting places in the outskirts of Esat Jerusalem and the voters in town had to vote in Israeli post offices surrounded by security and border police. Still 41% came out and voted and the overall turnout was 78%.
ONLY Palestinians in the Ocuupied Territories were allowed to vote. No Palestinians, even those who do not hold another citizenship but are legally classified as refugees, were allowed to vote.
While the voters were largely Muslim (20% of the Palestians are Christian) they too voted along religious lines. The cynic in me cannot avoid pointing out that American voters did the same in 2004-all 3 groups seeming to feel that what is wrong can be set right by following the tenets of their various religions.

To understand who this bloke is, have a read of this: A7718583

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&14ECC627E03DCABBC2257107003FE893

"Hamas is dealing with its election victory in the Palestinian territories with pragmatism, which Hizbullah could heed if it chose to promote the cause of democracy free from foreign diktats, Ghassan Tueni wrote Monday.
Comparing the two Islamic militant groups, strong allies in the Middle East political and military equations, Tueni lauded Hamas for calling for the "unity of the Palestinian guns," when Hizbullah continues to challenge the authority of the Lebanese Army, especially in the south.

He said this Hizbullah stance was casting suspicions about the army's loyalty and ability to engage in the defense of its land.

Tueni implored Hizbullah to use its good offices with Damascus to extract official recognition of the Lebanese identity of the Shabaa Farms. The Lebanese could then choose whether to seek its liberation through diplomatic channels, or by military means."

Curioser and curioser



Wilma