h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You have REALLY offended me with some of the Anti-American rubbish you keep spouting off about. Advertising these views on your User Page is one thing, but on random threads around H2G2 is another. If you can't come to grips with the fact this site is inhabited by people of many different countries, including people from the United States, then perhaps you should try to find a place on the internet that only carries one brand of people. Good luck.

Pigeonholing people into one "broad-based" generalization based on their nationality is not only wrong, it's simply ignorant. If you honestly think that all Americans are as they appear on "television", then I pity you. I thought that this type of simple-minded stereotyping went out by the wayside with the advent of the internet. But apparently the internet harbors all types, including those who spout hate and who wish to stamp out diversity.

I'm not sure what it is that you're afraid of. Are you REALLY afraid that the evil "Americans" are going to take over H2G2? Are you afraid that we are going to somehow take away from the inherent "Britishness" of this site? I hate to point this out to you, but as a resident of New Zealand you are no more "British" than I am, except for the fact that your government still has a representative of the "Queen". So should they just restrict all H2G2 users on the basis of their nationality? Should we all take a blood test and see who has the most "Brit" in them? Should we all run around and make sure that everyone knows how much we hate their country and all the people who live in that country?

Or should this site act as a working online community, supporting each other in working toward a common goal?

It's like the whole "ICQ/AIM" debate we had in the ACE forums. You stated:
"ICQ is a world communication device. It is, at the moment, far better than AOL. More than 5 billion citizens of the world, a figure that includes a lot of h2g2 researchers, are not living in crowded communities in North America."
You DO realize that my group of online friends began using AIM on a suggestion from several TDV employees. British TDV employees. You're entitled to use whichever communications device you like online, but to turn even THAT topic into a political "Us vs. Them" statement tells me a good deal about your stance on any subject that broaches a person's national origin. Even when it doesn't, really. But you can find something in anything if you look for it hard enough.

Look, I'm sure you're a nice enough guy, but this has really upset me. I'm not sure what your issue is with Americans, or if it's only with America, but either way it has no place on this site. It is the same sort of prejudiced behavior that had Festival/Skeleton removed from the ACEs list and from H2G2. Your political views are your own to keep, and if you don't like the way various countries are run - more power to you. Volunteer, run a campaign, contact one of your local political representatives - whatever - and see if you can make a difference in the world on your own level. You dislike the way that the United States, as a whole, is run, and I would probably agree with you on many different levels. I don't like the way SEVERAL governments are run, or politics in general for that matter. But that's not the point.

The point is that no matter where we're from, we all visit here for the same reasons. That counts for something. It wouldn't matter to me if you were downing Ireland instead of the United States, the message stays the same: There is NO place for hate and prejudice on this site.

I come here for fun and recreation. I come here to make new friends, to meet with existing friends, to write, read, learn and generally enjoy myself. NOT to have someone try and make me feel guilty about my nationality or to try and make me feel like there's no place for me (and other Americans) on this site.

The world would be a much nicer place if people such as yourself put a little of the energy you conserve for hating people into helping and accepting people.

That’s all I have the time to say. Thank you.

*is INTENSTLY relieved that somebody finally said something*

Amen sister.

Um, I don't understand any of the big words you ladies just said. I was wondering if, maybe, you could drag me to a special land where simple hand gestures are the preferred mode of communication. Maybe that would be easier for me, an American, to understand.


*ahem*
I think Amanda made a pretty good point there.
Thanks.

No offence intended people. I apologise if I have upset you by posting a JOKE with attitude.

I note the comment from an AMERICAN woman, Luna, that she had met the person mentioned in the JOKE.

Irony - (a) the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
(b) a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterised by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance.

Guilty as charged.

Xenophobe - one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin.

As a person who has travelled to over 50 countries and lived/worked with many different people/races I plead not guilty.

Tease - to disturb or annoy by persistent irritating or provoking especially in a petty or mischievous way.

Guilty as charged.

A REPLY FROM ENGLAND

Most of us assume that history is correct, and that following America’s "Declaration of Independence" the US and the British Empire went to war.

Well, not quite, below for your perusal is a document just declassified by the US Federal Government.

It seems the "Total Quality Management" methods/approach are not quite as recent as we thought. King George appears to have had his own TQM 'facilitator'.

The Court of King George III London, England

July 10, 1776

Mr. Thomas Jefferson
c/o The Continental Congress
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Dear Mr. Jefferson:

We have read your "Declaration of Independence" with great interest. Certainly, it represents a considerable undertaking, and many of your statements do merit serious consideration.

Unfortunately, the Declaration as a whole fails to meet recently adopted specifications for proposals to the Crown, so we must return the document to you for further refinement. The questions which follow might assist you in your process of revision:

In your opening paragraph you use the phrase "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God."
* What are these laws?
* In what way are they the criteria on which you base your central arguments?
* Please document with citations from the recent literature.

In the same paragraph you refer to the "opinions of mankind."
* Who’s polling data are you using? Without specific evidence, it seems to us the "opinions of mankind" are a matter of opinion.

You hold certain truths to be "self-evident". Could you please elaborate? If they are as evident as you claim then it should not be difficult for you to locate the appropriate supporting statistics.

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" seem to be the goals of your proposal. These are not measurable goals. If you were to say that among these are:
* the ability to sustain an average life expectancy in six of the 13 colonies of at least 55 years
* to enable newspapers in the colonies to print news without outside interference
* to raise the average income of the colonists by 10 percent in the next 10 years for example, these could be measurable goals. Please clarify.

You state that "Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new Government..."
* Have you weighed this assertion against all the alternatives?
* What are the trade-off considerations?

Your description of the existing situation is quite extensive. Such a long list of grievances should precede the statement of goals, not follow it. Your problem statement needs improvement.

Your strategy for achieving your goal is not developed at all. You state that the colonies "ought to be Free and Independent States," and that they are "Absolved from All Allegiance to the British Crown."
* Who or what must change to achieve this objective?
* In what way must they change?
* What specific steps will you take to overcome the resistance?
* How long will it take?
We have found that a little foresight in these areas helps to prevent careless errors later on. How cost-effective are your strategies?

* Who among the list of signatories will be responsible for implementing your strategy?
* Who conceived it?
* Who provided the theoretical research?
* Who will constitute the advisory committee?
Please submit an organisation chart and qualifications of the principal investigators.

You must include an evaluation design. We have been requiring this since Queen Anne's War.

* What impact will your problem have? Your failure to include any assessment of this inspires little confidence in the long-range prospects of your undertaking.

Please submit all necessary diagrams, an activity chart, proposed time line (with at least 3 options), itemised budget, and manpower utilisation matrix.

We hope that these comments prove useful in revising your "Declaration of Independence" in accordance with all TQM procedures.

We welcome the submission of your revised proposal. Our due date for unsolicited proposals is July 31, 1776. Ten copies with original signatures will be required.

Sincerely,

Sir Thomas Moore
Management Analyst to the British Crown

And to THINK I almost accused you of pretention!!

I have encountered occasional men and women in other places who enjoyed pointing out all of the USA's faults. In discussing things with them I have come to the simple conclusion that no matter where you go, no matter what society you encounter you're likely to find men and women who can be pleasant and sociable, and those who are simply detestable for their inability to be understanding or friendly. As someone who holds a position that enables you to be the first individual a new member here encounters, I do think you have an obligation to sit on your negative feelings about Americans. I certainly wouldn't have hung around here if you were the first jerk I ran into.

As someone who is moving to London and marrying an adorable British man I have also met many English people that are not anti-American and anti-social and feel qualified to tell you that you, sir, are a bigotted snob no matter where you live or where you're from. You may not be able to help your unpleasant behaviour, but perhaps you should think twice before being proud of it.

I'm not arguing whether you're right. I don't expect to change your mind, you obviously think you're right a lot: what I do argue is that you're rude.

You would disgust me this much if you were American. In fact, if you spoke the way you do and came from my country I would be ashamed to acknowledge it. You hurt people's feelings and that is never a good thing to do.

Please grow up or shut up. I think THAT's the point.

I "got" the humor in what you posted in the NEWsletter forum, Loony. I "got" all the irony and sarcasm and any other literary term you'd like to bring to my attention, save for alliteration (which people like "Bubba" - a.k.a. "Every American" - apparently don't understand). I got it, but I didn't find it funny. Yet I did like what you posted above - found it quite humourous, in fact! So, let me break this to you gently...

Despite what some people would like to believe, Americans are not bereft of a sense of humour.

I know - unbelievable, innit?!? I am one of the most sarcastic people I've ever met. But you wouldn't know that, would you, as you don't know *me*, and that remains to be the point.

I know that other countries LOVE to place the blame of everything on the United States, and that if you took a world-wide poll, Americans would be labeled 1) crass, 2) offensive, 3) ignorant, 3 1/2) arrogant 4) hideously touristy, 5) terrible spellers, 6) not funny at all, and 7) probably smelly. And some Americans might think that New Zealanders like to do unspeakable things with their sheep. You know what is true about where you come from and what isn't, more so than I because I don't LIVE there (get it?), and I admire your patriotism. What you need to realize that many people feel the same about the place they call home and you should learn to allow that in others.

Idiotic people happen to live everywhere, and since you claim yourself as a traveler you should agree. Every country on this green earth has some population of people with little or no awareness of the world around them, let alone a grasp of the type of pointed humour we like to throw with relish around these parts. But to quantify an ENTIRE population of a country, or state, or city, or burgh, or village based on the impression garnered from only a handful of it's inhabitants shows a very narrow-minded view indeed.

One of the best things about H2G2 is its diversity. This is the very first time many people have had the opportunity to witness, first hand, the views and opinions of people from other countries and cultures. But you can't forget what it was that drew us ALL here in the first place - the writings of Douglas Adams, a British author and humourist. By deductive reasoning you would THINK that the Americans on this site would get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like "humour" and "intelligence"; I mean, obviously we "got it" when reading his books, and the books of other British authors, and the British comedy we've watched on television, etc. ad infinitum. You would THINK that by some small measure people such as yourself would say, "Hey, maybe not ALL of these Americans are bad...maybe some of them DO 'get it'".

But that seems to not be the case.

In a very short amount of time, I will be meeting up with some of my online friends in person. So far it will be neatly split down the middle, equally, between countries represented: England and the United States (unfortunately, our Aussie friends couldn't make it). Funny how we all seem to "get" each other and get along. Funny how we all seem to find each other funny. Funny how the issue of nationality never seems to BE an issue. Nationality is never an issue with us because we never FEEL the need to dredge it up and flaunt it in each other's faces. Go figure.

I'm not here to defend Americans or to stake out our place on this site. That goes without saying. What I AM saying is that I have been offended by several of your posts, PARTICULARLY "And just so the Americans don't get homesick on this Brit site here's a bit of redneck humour - or is it a true story?” Yes, that's the bit. Not the succeeding "JOKE", if that's what you want to call it (personally, I heard better punchlines while living in Arkansas). I "get" comedy, sir, but I still don't see what is cute or endearing about making people feel awkward about where it is they call home. I don't find the humour in lumping a group of people together and calling them "rednecks" because they happen to be American. If that is supposed to be "irony", or whatever label you'd like to slap on it, then I'll take it all back and smack a big humour dunce-cap on my head and say, "By golly, I sho don't know what the heck is goin' on, y'all! I sho is stoopid!" But you know what?

I don't think that's going to happen. No matter HOW American I happen to be.

So let me wrap this up, then. You may have thought you were being funny-ha-ha with the negative and crass statements you made. And perhaps, to some people, being negative and bitter IS funny. But these are my fears, clearly defined:

1) Someone else, like myself, may have been offended by what you had to say. And seeing that you are an ACE and all, that might not make good business for H2G2. Who wants to be welcomed by or seek help from a person who so clearly has a problem with...people?

2) Someone might take your (funny-ha-ha) words to heart and the whole England vs. United States issue will flare up again. You may not be xenophobic, perhaps, but there are many others who are. And they feed off of this brand of irreverence.

A bit of advice...perhaps you should get to know people a little better before you attempt to insult them. Perhaps I wouldn't have been insulted had I known you well enough to make the assessment that you were "joking". But, as we can see, that just wasn't the case.

That's my ten bucks.

This reminds me of an anecdote told with great relish by Peter Ustinov, in respect of his part in a movie, a comedy, about how a small band of Mexicans re-take the Alamo.

At some point during the filming of the denouement, a banquet was held by the town's political leaders in honor of the actor. Dinner was preceded by a prayer: "Oh God," intoned the minister, "Give us Americans the ability to laugh at ourselves without losing sense of our essential greatness."

I think this is a wonderful anecdote. It's very funny and full of irony. The person who originally told it is not anti-American. I'm American (although I have lived abroad), and I find it quite funny, just like the idea of some bureacrat sending Thomas Jefferson a markup of the Declaration of Independence. How could you possibly fail to see that the Brits are taking the heat in that one?

I do think that nothing opens one up to ridicule like a lack of humour, though. And the Americans, of which let me remind you again I am one, are too often guilty of this humorless earnestness exemplified by Ustinov's preacher. You can't have every joke on your own terms...

Lil

Lil, I stated above that I found the "Declaration" bit hilarious. What I didn't find funny was a post in another forum, combined with those made in other places, which were NOT told as jokes and were not found funny by many. The ability to laugh at one's self is priceless, I agree. But laughing at the expence of other people is not.

I might have found Loony's comments humourous, or at the very least would have let them go unmentioned, had I not noticed a LONG history of American-bashing on his part. It's got to end at some point. There is nothing funny about hurting other people's feelings, and, like I said, if that IS in fact supposed to be "humour" then I will be the first to admit I am "humour-deficient".

I cannot believe I sat through and read (almost) all of that.

You lot got it pretty much wrapped up, but Amanda P said:
"Your political views are yours to keep to yourself"
I say:
"Talking bull, mate"

If we can't tell each other what we think of politics without fear of offending somebody, what's the point? Hey, I'm a big Watership Down fan, howsabout we forbid people saying bad things about rabbits for fear of offending me and other bunny-huggers.

You said that if you want something done in the politic scene then tell yer friends, start a rally, kill a cop etc. Or thereabouts. Yes, by all means do that but -don't- bring it to h2g2 or the Americans will have your guts for garters.
Jeez, lighten up a bit. So your gun laws are mind-bogglingly screwed and the government ain't doing nothing about it. There, I said it, now slash my throat why don't you.

Hi Lil!

I haven't read these other posts you're talking about, so I guess I'm not very well suited for commenting on that. But, generally speaking, I don't see anything wrong with expressing political views at this place, as long as you remember that there's a BIG difference between saying "Americans are stoopid!" and saying "I think this and that is wrong in American society, because of this and that, and I think it should be changed into this and that."

The last statement isn't hostile, it's serious, and it can be used as a basis for interesting debates, the first one is just downright mean and racistic.

It's always dangerous, being funny on other peoples behalf, cause you never know how serious they take it.

Thank you so much, "Mike A", for proving my point. This site is very much like a cross-section representation of society as a whole, and in any society you are going to find people who feed off of negativity and hatefulness. Bravo to you for attempting to read through "(almost) all of that", as you said, but I'm afraid that you still managed to take quite a few things out of context:

"Your political views are your own to keep" is what I had stated, not "to keep to yourself" as you stated.

Meaning that I am always pleased to find people in this world who disagree with the way things are run, as a whole, and wish to make a change for the better. Or who are at least observant enough to notice that there IS something wrong in the first place. But one of the things that is very wrong about human nature is the apparent need in some people to hurt and offend others, which very well may be something that will never change. So at the risk of redundancy, let me break this down into tiny, bite-sized pieces. Because my Major Pet Peeve #2 is people who join arguments without having a clue what the argument is about (as Bistroist was nice enough to point out). It's the mental equivalent of going to war without a weapon.

I got upset. I got upset because I read something posted by Loony in another forum that was extremely offensive to me. The thing he posted was a negative comment toward Americans Researchers on H2G2, and then I remembered that he has a history of saying negative comments toward a LOT of different nationalities (jokes, all of them, of course). Using terms like "Americacentric" and such which showed me that he probably didn't like Americans too much, or many other nationalities for that matter. So I confronted him about it. Which, I suppose, is as much of a right around here as offending people or making out of place comments.

It really doesn't have anything to do with politics inasmuch as politics always seems to get dragged into the center ring with issues like this. Politics and humor always seem like nice walls to hide behind when you've offended someone ("I was just kidding!"), but what it really comes down to is respect.

If I were to run around right now and start posting negative, derogatory statements toward Black people or Asian people or Choose-Your-Own-Minority-Group, how do you think others would take that? Would it make it any better if I said, "Sorry, I was just joking"? Or if I said, "But I really don't agree with the politics of China, so that makes it okay"? Why is this situation any different?

When my level of intelligence and ability to grasp humour is called into play based solely on my nationality, you bet your bum I’m going to be insulted. It goes for anyone doing that to anyone else. THAT is my Major Pet Peeve #1. Just in case I hadn’t made that abundantly clear.

(By the way, I'd just like to point out here that I am VERY "lightened up" 99% of the time. But when it comes to situations where other's best interests and feelings are at stake, I'm about as "light" as a chunk of granite.)

I'm glad Loony felt like he was comfortable enough with the people on H2G2 to have made that statement. Usually, "picking on" or "teasing" people about their backgrounds and national origin is something saved for close friends, I thought.

I was extremely offended. And I am offended still. And I know that I'm not alone. THAT is the point.

Amanda;P, type the word "sheep" into the h2g2 search engine. You will come up with literally 100s of references to New Zealanders behaving badly with these animals.

Most, but not all, of these JOKES are posted by Australians. (About a third are posted by North Americans) There is an intense rivalry between Aussies and Kiwis. Sometimes it gets personal. Always it gets forgotten about. Never is it taken out of context and then thrown back in a persons face months later.

Not one of the many male/female New Zealanders on this site is offended by these crude JOKES.

We respond to them, in the forums, with wit. It's part of our national psyche.

Type the word "redneck" into the search engine. Also many entries, mainly written by North Americans JOKING about a small, sad, minority of their fellow North Americans.

Canadians make JOKES about Newfoundlanders. The English tell Irish JOKES. The Irish tell English JOKES.

Luckily most of the people on the receiving end of these JOKES laugh and respond with wit. Laughter is the best medicine as some obscure American publication once said.

Alas some people don't/can't.

Reluctant as I am to get into this debate, I offer you this.

If you believe that all this "joking" back and forth ends at joking, I believe you are sadly mistaken. The fact that people respond in kind doesn't make it okay, for either party really. It doesn't mean that these remarks meant in jest don't hide some thoughts of distaste towards the other group. It doesn't mean that the subject of the joke wasn't offended, just because they offered a joke in return and never mentioned it further to the teller of the joke.

The stereotypes/generalizations/etc. that are portrayed in what might otherwise be harmless jokes are often believed by those who don't know better and passed on by those who wish to gain something by continued animosity between groups.

The fact that people to single out North Americans as the exception to this otherwise universal rule that everyone shrugs it off seems only to further the idea that something isn't quite right, and perhaps only North Americans are outspoken enough to say so. They're an easy target. Much real ridicule and distaste from others *is* aimed at them, as an entirety, so perhaps a bit of slack is in order for being suspicious of what some claim to be harmless jokes.

There's a fine line between what is acceptible and what is distasteful and offensive in a joke. Most people know where to draw it, in my experience.

The trick to being witty and respectful at the same time is not to let anyone take anything you say personally, and if someone does, to apologise, simply and humbly, and move on. An amazing level of mutual respect can be maintained that way, even between nationalities.

Just trying to help.

I'd just like to post as an American who has gotten to be pretty good friends with Loony by getting to know him rather than taking umbrage at his sense of humour.

Though the temptation to follow up redneck jokes with humourless liberal jokes is almost overwhelming, I think I shall restrain myself. After all, some people are their own jokes.

I think you lot got it all pretty much tied up now.

But Loonytoonz, surely the Welsh have the most sheep jokes aimed at them? I think I would know!

Mike A, I didn't know you were Welsh. I thought you came from the south of England!

Amanda, if you _truly_ want to deal with real anti-Americanism on h2g2, may I direct your attention to this thread:
http://www.h2g2.com/forumframe.cgi?forum=316&thread=14425

Its title is "aaargh america", which should give you a clue.

*whispers to Elico* Mike A has a Welsh surname.
*whispers to Mike A* I never told anybody about the sheep...

Hey guys, glad to see the group jumping in to support a friend.

Since I am refrenced in the beginning of this ridiculous thread, ( yes, I said "ridiculous)
I'll throw in my 2 cents.

1. The man some of you are so quick to judge happens to be a very sweet guy with an
astounding sense of the ridiculousness in this world. He pokes fun at everyone, including Kiwis.
I can't help but wonder if ya'll have read any of the brightly lit 'stuff' on his homepage. The article (?)
on New Zealand men & women is a riot!

2. Yes, there is a great amount of injustice in poking fun at people because of their place of origin
&/or their genetics. I should know, my family tree is quite diverse. I have aunts that are German and
won't admit it, cousins who claim that their high cheekbones come from Italian ancestry (of which we
have none) instead of claiming their Cherokee heritage. Throw in some Irish, English and African American for flavor.
You get the idea.
I have lived all over this United States, been made fun of for various reasons and still can't bring myself to take any of it seriously.
I enjoy humor, and if you don't think there are reasons to laugh at your neighbors and yourself, then you've been under the rock for way too long. Come on out, enjoy the sunshine!

What's my point? Good question.......there was one around here before I got of on a ramble!

If you don't like what you're reading, turn the page. Or just put the d*mn book down!

Looney, you can come to my homepage and post all the jokes you like.

Luna (QoH)

On your two statements:

1: You're probably right. I don't know Loony good enough and don't get in here often enough to say whether or not he's so and so sweet, or has made so and so many witty remarks about himself or others. But that really isn't the question. Nobody said that he wasn't a nice guy, and nobody said that he hasn't been incredibly funny now and then. That's not the point. The point is that some of the things he write here and there, might seriously offend somebody.

2: If you've heard a lot of stupid remarks 'bout your ancestry, and been able to shrug it off, then that's good for you. I hope and believe that I have the same ability. But there are others who are not as fortunate as we, and if it's possible to avoid hurting them by a quite minimal amount of consideration, then why the f*ck can't you just do it?

This is H2G2, you know, the second-friendliest place on the web.

-Bistroist
(King of Carts)