h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Better any number of offended thin-skinned people than a single attack of political correctness.

People who are that easily offended probably ought to stay off the Internet entirely. Why should we not censor our own language and sense of humour out of consideration for them? Because constraining our language constrains our thoughts, and leaves us with a poorer universe of discourse. See Orwell's "1984" for further thoughts on this matter.

Free speech is the basis of our other freedoms. You'll find a passionate argument for this proposition in the works of Locke. The way to counter speech you disagree with is not to demand that the disagreeable speech cease, but to muster your own arguments as to why the ideas behind that speech are incorrect.

Loony, feel free to post anti-Amerikan slurs to my page as well. Or anti-Kiwi or anti-Bratislavan or whatever else.

You know, nobody can make themselves feel some way that they don't. In the same sense, it's really quite difficult to stop an emotion that's already started. I don't think that Amanda should feel humorless and thin-skinned because she felt offended by a statement that was offered on a post.
If someone makes a joke with no intentions of offending anyone and that joke does INDEED rub someone the wrong way, you would think that the jokester would apoligize. "Wow, I was really only joking and never intended to hurt anyone...". When Looney found out that his comments had offended, he offered no apolgies. That only tells me that, if he's not sorry, he indended to offend.
In a forum setting such as this, there has to be compromise. You have to realize that there are many different people out there who have views and feelings that differ from your own. Being considerate to the others is part of what holds the whole forum community together. That's not to say that you can't be yourself but, for God's sake, have some respect.

And before someone copies and pastes Looney's feeble apology in response...
I meant a SINCERE apology not an "I'm sorry but...". Once you put the "but" in there, it's no longer sincere.
Thank you.

I wanted to reply to this thread, but Daisy's said it all.

Did NOBODY go look at the thread I cited earlier? We have America bashers in h2g2 who don't make jokes, they just throw rocks. Why are you harassing Grahame over his sense of humour? With so much verbal fire and energy at your disposal, you could be setting straight some genuine xenophobes.

If Grahame is a racist then I'm a Welshman. This is humour, loosely based on propositional logic. When the first clause is untrue, then anything follows, as it evidently has.

I don't know you ladies and hate to get off on the wrong footing with you, but it is distressing to Grahame's friends to find him being pursued by maenads. Our earlier good-natured interventions have been either ignored or steamrollered. We have been discussing this and wish you would stop. Thank you.

Lil

There's no hope for the original issue. It's become a war between gangs now and it can't be anything but a stupid argument with lots of "I know what you mean but" and "How can you say" and it's just not going to go anywhere. The point that Amanda was trying to make has fallen on deaf ears and been argued quite to death (the point, for those who've lost track [I had to go back and read it again myself] was that Looneytunes is an ACE and therefore the first person a lot of people see at the site, and so a positive impression should be made at all times) and this particular method of dealing with her grievance has proven ineffective.

I very modestly suggest that this discussion be ended soon with lots of handshakes before there is any more disparaging done, because clearly many of us are very keen on taking up sides and arms and going neener-neener at each other and that has never, ever, ever solved anything.

And if anyone is now saying "well who the hell does she think she is" I am someone who is being made very uneasy by the tone of this debate, despite my deep respect and affinity for debates in general. All involved are meant to help negotiate a compromise, which isn't happening.

Personally I think some private real-time conversations are in order but this is actually none of my business so I should probably just go home now before someone gets angry with me.

Kristina, you've made the most sense of anyone on here so far, including myself. I wish that it were that easy, and perhaps it would be if I could just back down and say "Ha, ha! No harm done, then." And go out and "enjoy the sunshine", as it were.

But I'm a little too busy at the moment to do that. 'Cause I'm still trying to figure out which offends me more:

Being ridiculed about my origin on a site which is a public domain (yes, I agree) and used by many people of MANY different origins (yes, yes, we know this), but a site which has a CLEARLY defined set of rules about behavior and treatment of other users while online nonetheless...

...OR having my feelings mocked by the parties in question.

Aparently, H2G2 rules don't apply to some people, especially those who have had nothing but negative things to say about the site from day one. It's apparently alright for some people to post whatever they like in threads, such as the Newsletter, but it's wrong for me to air my greivances someone's user page? Humph. That's for TDV to deal with on their own level, as I've done everything I can to define my fears on my own.

So here's the closest thing to a compromise I can think of, since an honest and heart-felt apology is out of the question (so it seems)...
Since SO many of you seem to get a big kick out of bigoted, hateful, racist remarks (JOKES!), why don't you keep them between yourselves. Why don't you just all start your own little threads, which mock and belittle people of ALL races, creeds and cultural backgrounds? And then you can all sit back and giggle at how terribly clever you all are, since it takes SO much brain-wattage to spew out the types of comments children throw around on playgrounds. (Pajama party, anyone?) You can all go do that, while the majority of people on this site continue to find humor in things that don't hurt other people's feelings and that don't make people feel out of place.

Yeah, right. I can hear the muffled cries of "Censorship" right now. None of you would want to be placed in quarantine, and the rest of us don't want to see bigots running amok on this site.

You think it would be really simple. The primary rule of this site is pretty simple. No spitting. Simple. Hmmm. I guess some people just really don't GET it.

Perhaps another compromise is in order, then.

You think?

If I personally have caused offense I apologize unconditionally. I respectfully withdraw from the debate without further comment.

Thank you Lil, you didn't do anything wrong. You made some good points and tried to help diffuse this situation, which was appreciated on all sides of this, I'm sure. You stated your opinion on all of this, and you have just as much a right to do so as anyone else. But you were not offensive in any way.

You set a great example just now, but it wasn't your responsibility to do so. Thank you nonetheless.

........ And I'll jump in where Lil bows out.

First some background: I'm British, I've travelled plenty and been living in the USA for the last 6 months.

I've always made fun of Americans in much the same way that the loony does, but let me say here and now that I quite like Americans and America.

You have loads of very funny comedians here who make fun of your country, and it's peculiarities. The Simpson's is all about stereotypical America and who ever complains about that? Not many people, but what would the situation be if the series originated in another country?

The golden rule for humour about America seems to be that it's OK if you're America but if anyone else does it you'll send in the marines. I mean it. Americans, and American society, function on the principle that this is God's own country and woe betide anyone who dares to insult you by laughing at you, however much you might laugh at yourselves or each other.

Do you have any idea how many comments about the War of Independence I've heard in my time here? Or barbed comments from "Irish" Americans? I lost count ages ago but you know what? I don't worry about it. I laugh it off, make a joke, or occasionally get into serious debate with people and correct their mis-perceptions. But I don't take it personally.

But there's no point giving someone a hard time when they make fun of national characteristics or stereotypes. The humour is not directed at me, or at Amanda P. It's directed at tea-drinking, stiff upper lip, sexually repressed jerks, or at someone called Bubba who doesn't even know the difference between England and Britain.

Clear?

Now let me address a few comments that I picked up while reading ALL the coments in this thread before replying.

Amanda P. You put the word "Queen" in quotes. The title is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, or "The Queen" for short - without quotes. I read your use of the 'the "Queen"', with inappropriate quotes and no capital T, as indicating that you are not comfortable with the title and refuse to use it properly. Surely this is no way to behave towards the acknowledged head of state of over a billion people? Feel free to debate the British political system in the appropriate forum, but in the meantime I find your attitude offensive.

Nit-picking? Yes, but you're a foreigner and not entitled to hold an opinion about my country so kindly keep your opinions to your self. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

As for starting a campaign, democracy starts with individials, not with elected representatives. If the people of your country recognised that more often, and started taking individual responsibility for the consequences of their actions then your political system (and it's products) might start to be more widely respected.

The USA, as a political power, is widely viewed with derision and no amount of whingeing on your part is going to change that. Your comment that you don't like politics puts you firmly in the category of people who make the USA the laughing stock that it is.

Krissy Lee used the term 'English' and I saw it crop up again later. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one country and it's citizens all carry the same passport. As someone with strong links to Scotland and Wales I find your use of the word 'English' to be not only offensive, but thoughtless and uninformed. Cut it out, OK?

New Zealanders and sheep? Welshmen and sheep, Australians and.... blah blah blah. We can all take a joke and can defend ourselves without having to hide behind outraged national sensibilities. Why can't Americans? I've heard similar jokes told in the USA about people from certain areas, but because I'm not from the USA I can't tell them. Is that fair?

I don't mind the Loony making fun of me, and I'm glad of the opportunity to give him a hard time. If the no- sense- of- humour brigade want to give people a hard time just because someone is challenging their view of their country as No. 1 then the best remedy is for the rest of us to post as much anti-american humour as possible on the home pages of the offenders.

I'll say this again - the humour is directed at the stereotypes, not at 'normal' individuals. I don't seriously imagine that the Loony is a sheep shagger any more than I believe that Amanda P is a narrow-minded, humourless arsehole. Probably.

Finally, one of the Americans used the phrase 'wrap-up'. Like you're not winning this argument so you think it's time everyone went home. Bullshit! One of the reasons that the USA is so widely disliked is that the USA, as a nation, assumes the right to dictate the behaviour of others in it's own best interests. You started this thread and I think you need to hear what other people think, not just have your say and then ignore us because we're obviously just a bunch of poorly-informed bigots.

Really finally. What many americans fail to appreciate is that the internet is dominated by american interests, and non-americans find it a little irritating that they are continually being invited to buy products that are targetted at americans. What use is a US credit card, insurance policy, car loan or whatever to someone in New Zealand? Is it really so surprising that people using a site hosted in the UK, and created by a British author, want to resist being swept away in the tide of american orientated comment.

Right, that's all I have to say!

chris

PS No it's not. Here's a joke: Why did the american cross the road? Answer: To suck my ****

Seems to me the goal should be to break down stereotypes, not perpetuate them.

People are individuals, individuals are lovely

I live in Britain, and I can honestly say that I do not know 'Americans', or 'Australians', or even 'the British'. I only know individuals. Most of those individuals are excellent, and some of them are not. But I only got to know which were which by GETTING TO KNOW THEM FIRST.

I can admit that I am prejudiced - I doubt there is anyone in the world that can look at themselves honestly and say that they aren't a little bit prejudiced. You get it from your parents, your peers as you're growing up, and your friends and neighbours. When we are young, we are very much tribal creatures. When we go out into the world, we (hopefully) learn to curb our prejudices and not say things that dismiss people from afar, but no-one ever gets rid of it all. It takes patience, practice, tact and thoughtfulness. Not to mention maturity.

Of course, anyone's free to say that they don't like 'Americans', but they're only going to make themselves looks stupid. Who do they mean: Americans? What, all of them? No. Just the ones that they've met, obviously. Personally, my racist jokes got left behind in the school playground - they're tiresome and unimaginative, and only serve to maintain the air of snobbishness that certain nations fought so hard to establish around the world way-back-when.

============
Also, because it annoys me that people keep taking Orwell as gospel:

"Because constraining our language constrains our thoughts, and leaves us with a poorer universe of discourse. See Orwell's "1984" for further thoughts on this matter."

This simply isn't true at all. See virtually any modern linguistics book for a simple explanation of why linguistic snobbery just cannot be perpetuated by this common myth. Any sufficiently skilled writer can explain anything there is to explain in a language of only 500 words. Are you suggesting that people born without a language cannot think at all? That they do not have any emotions or feelings which motivate their actions? That they cannot invent words to deal with any aspect of their lives which they wish to articulate? That Albert Einstein, or many famous chess Grand Masters are intellectual impostors? Einstein had terrible grammar and spelling, but I seem to recall that he had quite an active mind.

Statistically, of course there is a correllation between poor grammar/spelling/vocabulary and general intelligence level, but that's ***not*** because one causes the other - they're often both symptoms of a deeper underlying cause - that of poor education generally. But ***of course*** you can have one without the other: there are plenty of people who command excellent language skills who cannot hold together even the most straightforward logical argument, and likewise there are people who appear under-developed linguistically, but who can easily outwit the most florid rhetorician in non-verbal competition or logical argument. There are many people here on h2g2 who are far, far cleverer than their spelling might appear to those who can see no deeper than their (often misguided) language analysis.

Linguistic reletavism is pure bunk, and Orwell, though a superb writer, was not a linguist. In his defence, however, there was not a great deal of rigorous research completed in this area in his time.

I too am bowing out of this discussion. Unlike Lil, though, I rather hope I did give offense to people who think the world should be a drab and humourless place.

Yes. Yes, that's obviously what everyone else thinks. Well done for spotting that one.

I find some of the comments in this thread offensive. There are a number of comments that are variously; racist, abusive, obscene and objectionable. People are therefore breaking the terms and conditions of h2g2, which are:

------------
Minimum standards

Use of the site constitutes acceptance of the following
terms and conditions.

1.You agree not to use the forum to transmit material that promotes
bigotry, racism, hatred, or harm of any kind against any group or
individual;

is harassing, defamatory, invasive of another's privacy, abusive,
threatening, obscene or otherwise objectionable;

that infringes the intellectual property or other rights of another;
that contains advertising or other forms of commercial solicitation.

-------------

Our policy is that anyone breaching the h2g2 terms and conditions, will be removed from the site for seven days.

This is the first time I've had to come into a thread and post the terms and conditions. Which is a shame. I don't want to have to inforce the T&C's, so please tone it down. Think before you post and if *anyone* could be offended by your comment, just don't post it; there are *no* circumstances which justify deliberate offence. Previous conversations have shown that it is possible to discuss a whole manner of controversial subjects within h2g2 without being offensive.

Peta Haigh
Community Editor

Can I ask, though:

What is infringing the intellectual property of somebody?

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=intellectual%20property

It's not strictly related to this discussion, obviously, but it's part of the bit of T&C that Peta stuck in. Otherwise you're quoting out of context.

Who me?
I don't think I am.