h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

22,9 "As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in ther bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."


47,4 "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."



5,75 "They surely are infidels who say, 'God is the third of three'; for there is but one God; and if they do not refrain from what they say, a severe punishment shall light on those who are unbelievers."



5,51 "Believers, do not take Jews or Christians as friends They are but one anothers friends. If anyone of you takes them for friends, then he is surely one of them. God will not guide evil doers."


These are hardly indicative of a tolerant religeon.

I don't have time to deal with this at the moment, but I will help you. Read the ayah's that come before and after the ones qouted. You have taken them out of context by just choosinf one verse.

Adib

You'll have to explain to me how I took these out of context. I really can't see it.

Ok its quite easy how some thing can be taken out of context.

What happens is when you have more than one verse, for sake of argument 8. Lets say vese 6 says :Then strike them down and kill them and thats all you show.

But what noone knows by just looking at it is that verses 1 to 5 are saying what to do if you are attacked with verse six being the action you should take after verse 1 to 5 and then verse 7 and 8 are actuallty telling you restrictions on this order. And example of this out of context can be found in the Qur'an ayah 9 verse 1 - 6 read it and see.

Anyway when I get time I will explain the about verses.

Till then, open a Qur'en and read whats before and after the ones you have printed and also the translaters foot notes as some of the real meaning is lost in translation and then the history of the sura and verse revealed. And you will have your answer.

adib

Bubba Fretts,
where do you get your Quranic transcripts from?
I cannot find some of the Surahs you quoted.

Look on

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

I cannot find your quotes for 22:9 and 5:75

Karl

I have to admit I didn't do the translating, arabic was never my strong point. A chap called Ibn Warraq did. He's a Pakistani ex-muslim who 'lost his faith' after the Rushdie affair. Written a lot on Islam. His stuff is quite amazing, personaly i always felt the catholic faith was the most flawed, blatantly made up religeon on the planet. Until I read his book "Why I am not a Muslim".

Scary is the only word I can use to describe it.

With all that has happened recently, ie the US election. I find it funny how people can be so easily duped by a chalatan. And that's what Muhammad seams to be. the Koran is litered with hatefull, spitefull text. It contradicts itself on numerous occasions, but it turns out this is OK, "Whatever verses we cancel or cause you to forget we bring a better or it's like." As taught by Sura 2.105. I mean what kind of omnipotent god says one thing, then needs to correct himself later. The dittery type I guess!

He also traces the history of tollerance in Islam. Before I always believed Islam was tollerant. But the list of masacres and forced conversions is fairly horrific. But not just that. People were coerced with tax relief (non muslims had to pay a tax called the Jizya to remind them of their inferiority), threats of violence, threats of slavery, and my particular favourite the 'Devshirme'. Where a fith of all christian children in the conquered teritories were taken from their parents and press ganged into the army. It seamed if you were a non muslim in living in Islamic society, you were pretty much the lowest of the low. And constantly reminded of this.

And don't even get me started on christianity...

Bubba-Fretts!
It looks like we've got similar opinions on religions as a whole! If you click on my name, it'll take you to my conversations, where I've actually challenged Muslims and Christians on some of these issues. I wasn't aware of the stuff you say about Christians in Islamic societies though.

A common response I'm getting is that hatred and intolerance in Islamic societies is actually perpetrated by "un-Islamic" people. I'm therefore having a point-by-point argument with Adib Qasim over many Quranic verses. His constant response is that I'm taking these verses "out of context". It doesn't really ring true to me.

I got a similar response from a Catholic site, although that discussion has come to end for a few weeks now. I'm not the most intelligent or the most stupid of people, but for some reason I just can't seem to get the gist of these religions...

See what you think,

Karl

I've found it...
Quran Surahs 22:17 to 22:22

The Surah you quoted is 22:19-22:20, not 22:9

This is a good one! I wonder how Adib will find a peaceful interpretation?

Karl

Sorry have not replyed for awhile, I have been dealing with Karls ayah's he printed. Not quite finished all the ones he wrote down yet but I wil I will start to deal with the ayah's you printed on Monday inshallah.

Adib

Hey guys. Karl I hope the quotes are of use, Iv'e read some of the links of you're homepage. I do agree with most if not all of your posts. Muz you do realise I'm not a fan of organised religeon, I do appreciate the discussion however. You do sound a little bit like an evangalist however...

Me an evangalist!!!! Nooooooo. Actually I'm just a white Muslim who has had the time to read the whole of the Qur'an and to have studied it. I might sound a little like a evangalist I suppose, but the difference is I'm not trying to convert you, I just want to show you how your wrong it what you say about Islam.

Actaully as far as discussion's go I love them, as its always a reason to go home and spend several hours writing and checking my reply etc.

Plus its only fair to discuss such things, as otherwise none of us would be able to see the others point of view.

Anyway I better get started on sura 22 ayah 19.

By the way I have to say good going to Karl, for not only checking your ayah's out and finding the one you missed printed but also for on the other thread in putting in some of the context. Well done.

Sura 22 is the first sura of a series of 4 that deals with the environments and methods contributing to peoples spiritual progress.
The five sura's bofore this one dealt with the messengers who came in various ways to proclaim the truth and conquer evil, and so this sura is moving on from there to the spiritual progress and growth required to keep away from evil.

this particluer sura is concerned mainly with the spiritual implications of the Pilgramage, the sacrifices, the Sacred House, Striving and fighting in defense of truth when attacked, and other such actions that make for unselfishness and uproots falsehood.

the first part of this sura (ayahs 1 - 25) deal with the importance of spiritual future, need of firmness in faith: help for truth and punishment for Evil.

To get some idea of the context we will need to read from ayahs 17 to 22 at least.

ayah 17:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scrptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists, - God will judge between them on the day of judgement: For God is witness of all things.

ayah 18:

Seest thou not that god bow down in worship all things that are in heaven and on earth, - The sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for punishment: and such as God shall disgrace, - None can raise to honour: For God carries out all that He Wills.

ayah 19:

These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But for those who deny (their Lord), - For them will be cut out a garment of fire: Over their heads will be poured out boiling water.

ayah 20:

With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.

ayah 21:

In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them

ayah 22:

Everytime they wish to get away there from, from anguish, they will be forced back their in, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the penelty of Burning!"


The Muslims in ayah 17 are mentioned alongside the Jews, Christians, Sabians, Magians and Poltheists. It is not stated that they will recieve God's mercy, but only that God will judge between the various forms of faith. the addition of polytheists (worship of more than one God) seems a little surprising as such things are forbidden in Islam, but the argument made here is that all forms of faith that are sincere (and not merely contrmacious) are matters in which as men can not interfere. It is our duty to be tolerent within all limits of tolerence. i.e. so long as there is no opression, injustice, and persecution. Where we can right an obvious wrong, it is our duty to do so; but it would be wrong on our part to rush in without power or authority simply because other people do not see our point of view.

Ayah 18 is saying that all created things, animate or inanimate, depends on god for existence, and this dependense can be constructed as their Sadja or bowing down in worship. Their very existance proclaims their dependance, how can they then be seen as objects of worship?
Earlier in this sura it was stated that those who work in harmony with God's law will get their reward as God always carries out His plan (see ayah 14 - 16 which I have not printed here, don't have enough time to). Here at the end of ayah 18 we have the parallel argument that those who defy God's Will must suffer pain and disgrace, for God is well able to carry out His Will.

The two antagonists in ayah 19 are the people of faith, who confess their Lord and seek to carry out His Will, and the other are the people who deny their Lord and defy His Will.

Ayah 20 is giving the punishment expressed in physical terms as the punishment will be all-pervading, not merely superficial.

Ayah 21 shoul be read with ayah 22. there will be no escape from the final punishment adjudged after the time of repentance is past.


So the ayah is dealing with what will happen to those who go against God's will on the day of judgement and as such is not an act that any Muslim shoul do to another person.

The point here is that this is not urging people to be voilent, it is simple expressing what will happen to believers and unbelievers. etc etc.

When people say Islam is a voilent religion they say that it preaches people to do voilent things, but yet again as this ayah shows it has not told muslims to voilent to non Muslim's but rather as in ayah 17 it tells us to be tolerent to other peoples faiths and opinions unless some misjustice is being carried out to their people. An example of thi is the pre Islamic view that girls where a burden and so female babies would be placed in graves alive. This was forbidden in Islam and on the day of fudgement such people who commited it would feel punishment of extreme lenths. Any follower of Islam who saw such an act being commited by a group of peoples would do every thing he can to stop it from happening if he could.

Adib

Salaam Bubba-fret,

Firstly the Qur'an is not litered with hateful and spiteful text, most of the ones people state are heavily taken out of context by not reading what comes before or after the ayah.

Plus if numerous out of context ayah's are proof of this then shorly the more numerous ayah's in full context that implore peace, understanding etc is stronger evidence than yours.

Can you give me a few example of contradictions in the Qur'an. I would be happy to show you how you are wrong about them being contradictions.

Do you fully know what Jizya is and what it is for. Do you know how much it was?

Thats enough for now.
Adib

>>The point here is that this is not urging people to be voilent, it is simple expressing what will happen to believers and unbelievers. etc etc.<<

From this I agree with you, it doesn't urge people to be violent. But it shows your god to be a god of violence. Not benevolant or peacefull.

Let me ask you this; why would god create so many people knowing full well in advance (for he would have to if he is omnipotent) that the vast majority of them will go to hell. Seems either to be a pointles act of sadism or he simply doesn't care for his creation? Then he decides to torture them, hmnn.

Funnily enough Cat Stevens is playing as I type this, ironic huh.

Actuallty through my brillint skills of mind reading, well a educated guess really, I alreday knew you was going to say that.

But as I am working on writing out an answer to that (I already know the answer) I also am dealing with whats his names qoutes from the Qur'an.

My copy of that book you mentioned (teach your self Islam) still has not arrived, I will let yo know when it does.

adib

Hopefully you'll be enlightened when it arrives. Oops that's another religeon.
The Jiyza didn't seem to be a set amount, it was an impossed tax only for non muslims living in the the Dar I Islam (is that correct?). One of the 'persuisive' reasons to convert. Well one that didn't result in your being killed, having you wife taken as a slave or your children conscribed.

ad lib

Bubs

where do you get your rubbish, no offence. If some one is not a Muslim and does not wish to be a Muslim then they can not be forced into it or be punished for it. I would like qoutes from the Qur'an or hadith to support your claims.

as for Jizya, Yes it is a tax and it was charged on men of fighting age 16 -60 ish and who was fit and healthy. The tax was a neglible amount of around one dinar and for it your son, or the man in question would not have to defend his land from invaders, fight in wars, and recieved protection from the Muslim's etc.

In todays times it would be the equilevent of being asked to pay a penny
if you not wish to help in the defence of the country and would be protected from harm etc.

I will tell you some more about it when I get time.

Adib

No offence taken.

The point is it was a tax levied against non muslims, by muslims, because they were not muslims. Were there any instances where a muslim who wasn't fighting had to pay it? Racism, quod erat demonstratum.

There was pleanty of strong arm tactics used to convert, I've already mentioned the Devshirme (lets be honest if the choice was to loose one of my children or convert, I think I know what I would do), there was conversion at the point of a sword:

8th century, the massacers in the Sind
9th century, the massacre of Spanish christians in Seville
10th century, persecution of any non muslims under Caliph al-Hakim
11th century, the massacres of the Jews in Granada and Fez
12th centiry, the destrution of north Africa by the Almohads
13th century, the christians in Damascus were either killed or sold into slavery, and there churches burned into the ground
14th...

...I think you get the picture. There are plenty of examples for each century, plenty. I'm not saying Islams worse than any of the other major religeons. They all have horrific records. But it's the subject were disscussing.

Anyway, try for one minute not to be a muslim. Just one minute, one day. Then the next day, try it for an hour. Hopefully within a couple of months you can learn to live without it. Go a whole day without the emotional crutch and it'll make you a stronger person. The future isn't dark and bleak without religeon. It's bright and strong, it takes a strong person. And it's not easy at first. But I can see in you a capable, intelligent person who doesn't need to worship at alters and buy into millenia of misguided foolishness. Try it, go on, you might like it...

Ad infinitum

Bubsy

I will get round to explaining a few things, bt at the mo I am writing up my answers to the ayah's you printed.

I just wanted to say though that you obviousley do not know any thing about me. did you read my home page?

For the first 20 years of my life I was a non believer and then I became a Muslim. I know first hand what its like to be a non believer.

Your silly comments of try one day without religion etc are completely wasted on me as I've been their.

An how would you like it if I said, why don't you try for just one day to be a Muslim and to pray five times a day etc etc.

as for strength I have far more strength in Islam than I would ever have without it. Every day I wake up I don't have to worry about things as I know that when I die I will be rewarded. An you want real voilence let me tell you about you non believers. Its you non believers that spew insults to Muslim women in Hijab walking down the street. Its you non believers that dragged asian people out of cabs and beat them up after september 11th. It was one of you non believers that walked into a store and stabbed the asian guy their just because he thought he was a Muslim. It was you non believers that spit and beat up people just because they are Muslim.

When people at my old work place found out I was white Muslim I was instantly labelled as want to be Paki. Or I would be called Osama etc etc.

It was Adolf Hitler influenced by Darwins survival of the fitist that killed 6 million jews and his seeking of the master race. It is China's communist goverment that has caused much suffering to its people who followed non religious views.

Its the British goverment that has arrested over three hundred people under new anti terrorist laws yet not one has been charged with attempting to do a terrorist strike and most of them have been released.

It is the United states goverment that has also arrested many many Muslim's under its anti terrorist laws. Two examples:

Four Muslim's living together who had all been to a training camp in Pakistan I think it was but had left it as they diesagreed with it. One went to a Muslim country and got married and sent a e mail to his friend saying have got married so I will not see you anymore. The Us who had been monitering them for two years arrested them as they thought this was a signal to a strike. Massive media coverage and claims of breaking a sleeper cell. Where were the press when they where all released with out charge.

Second example. a group of Muslim teenagers went paint balling and so where arrested as it was thought they where training for a up coming terrorist strike. Massive media coverage about another cell being arrested. Hardly a whisper when they where released with charges dropped.

An your point about Muslim countries, Hello who put the leaders in power.
sadam hussain put in power by USA
Osama bin laden put in power by USA
Leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia originally backed by Usa etc etc.

While the media highlight suffering in Muslim countries they neglect to mention other suffering in other countries by their non Muslim rulers. Why because they are not seen as a threat to the west so it does not matter about what those people do to their leaders.

You put the blame for voilence on religion, I don't. I give you hundreds of examples of terrorism and voilence by non believers of any faith. My arguement is that voilence is a choice made by individuals and religion or lack of religion has no bearing on it.

If some one is going to kill someone they will, not because they are Muslim or christian or atheist but because thats who they are.

As for me, I have never felt more care and compassion than when I am with my Muslim friends at Mosque. the next best to that is when I am with my other friends be they Christian Atheist or Jew etc.

Anyway I will be back soon to write up my replys to the ayah's finished.

take care
Adib

I completely agree with you Adib on the points you make about state-sponsored terrorism.

However, not all of the incidents you list are due to non-believers (although of course they do not believe in Islam, but they do believe in some religion or other).

Adolf Hitler was brought up in a staunch Catholic family. His hatred of the Jews stemmed from anti-Semitism that was rife in Europe by European Christians. Part of his argument for persecuting/exterminating the Jews was that they were the race that rejected the teachings of and executed Jesus Christ. Of course, the notion that the Jewish race was inferior to the "Aryans" was based on a more general belief that the "Aryans" were superior to all other races on the planet. Yes, Hitler did use Darwin's theory of evolution as an argument to back up his twisted ideology. That wasn't solely Hitler's doing. That was a common view amongst European scientists of the late 19th and early to mid 20th century - that somehow white Europeans were at the "top" of the evolutionary tree. Complete bollocks of course. Darwin himself was also guilty of this, as he was a product of Victorian British society. Modern evolutionists shouldn't hold this viewpoint.
Hitler also argued that the Jews had never fully integrated into European/Germanic society, and that they were "a state within a state", and "a stateless nation". Which is why of course the Allied powers set up the state of Israel at the end of the second World War, to give Jews their own country. A very short-sighted and Imperialistic attitude if you ask me - that they thought they could just displace the Palestinians from their homeland. Nevertheless, the decision to do this by the Allied powers was based on their fundamental Christian beliefs, that "Israel" was the birthplace of Christianity, and that Judaism was the origin of Christianity - and not from any agnostic/atheist/non-believer arguments.
Hitler also blamed the Jews for the development of Communism/Bolshevism, which was the natural enemy/opposite of fascism - Karl Marx was a Jew.

The knee-jerk reaction of the Western powers to Sept 11th is still fundamentally based on Christian-Muslim antagonism, not on atheist-Muslim antagonism (although I, as an agnostic, am particularly pissed off with the way the monotheistic religions are taking the world at the moment). This is particularly true of the USA, wherein fundamentalist/evangelical Christian populations and Jewish populations have yet again managed to place Dubya Bush in power for a second term, based on their support of his handling of the Iraqi and Al-Qaeda situation.

I agree with you that it stinks that hardly a mention is made when these Muslims are released from the holding/concentration camps without charge, but it's still a fundamentally a problem of religious antagonism.

I agree with you that the USA has shot itself in the foot with regard to it being the country who put Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden in power. At the time, the USA was out for its own ends. Saddam was an enemy of Iran (again a Christian versus fundmentalist Muslim judgement) and Bin Laden was supported becuase he was fighting against Communist USSR in Afghanistan - a problem of opposing Capitalist versus Communist ideologies, with the USA using the Mujahadin Muslims as pawns to fight the Commies. It stinks.

I agree with you about Communist USSR and China oppressing their people by oppressing religious freedom. However, Communism is an extreme example to take. Communism, whilst being actively anti-religious (oppressively so) does itself seek to replace the worship of God with the "worship" of the state and of the leader of that state. The ideology is in effect a substitute/replacement for religion, rather than being true atheism. It can be argued that it is a form of religion in itself, because of the fervent worship of the state's leader - seen especially in North Korea.

I agree that the racist attacks against Asians (frequently mistaking any Asian for a Muslim) were carried out by ignorant thugs, who themseleves are just as bad as any religious terrorist.

However, I disagree with your statement that religion has no bearing on the carrying out of violence/terrorism. Regardless of whether those violent individuals are acting as true proponents of their faith when they carry out violence (I accept your point in this instance that Islamic terrorists are perhaps not complying with the Quran, for example), the fact is that religious terrorists carry out their violent acts in the name of their religion, based on their (arguably incorrect or warped) religious beliefs. Therefore, religion DOES have a bearing on violence.

Karl

Two questions Muzzakbioy.

1) Why do you take every opportunity to point out that you are a white muslim? I'm begining to think that thou dost protest too much, and I can't see anything to be gained in this.

2) Do you think that religeon is your drug?

BTW you never answered the question on why your god is a sadist and wants to create so many people just to send them to hell. Please don't give me parables about barbers.

Bubbly