h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Salaam,

Karl good points but the point I was making about Adolf Hitler was that his concept of the master race was based heavily on the ideas of charles Darwin and the evolutionry tract of mankind. the same goes with Karl Marx and trotsky and General Mao or what ever his name is.

The point I was making is that plenty of voilence has been commited on the teaching and beliefs of Darwins theroy and so if a terrorist doing some thing un Islamic is still showing that Islam is a voilent religion then by the same token those who have commited crimes etc on the teachings of Darwinism are examples of atheist ideals.

your point about Usa actually causes problems as people in the west who are not religious say that religion should not have any place in politics and so if thats the case then why is their countries run by parties with religious under tones behind them and should they not try and do some thing about their own goverments before tackling other countries, as it is a commom boast by the west of its seculer leader ship.


As for Bubba-fretts, the reason I was pointing out I am a white Muslim is that what you said would be well and true if aimed at someone who has been a Muslim all their life but when aimed at me holds no wieght, as I have been there and have been a non believer.

as for your other question, No my religion is not a drug to me.

An your final comment is answered by me saying I only have one pair of hands and not enough time to answer questions etc, and I am concentrating on replying to the ayahs you wrote and will get round to replying about God after that.

An I promise no Barber stories.

adib

darn I spent all my time writing a long e mail to some one in India sorry. But I will be bact tomorrow morning and first thing I will right up about some of the ayah's you printed.

Ayah

No worries.

Salaam,

Karl I can't remember if I dealt with Sura 5 ayah 51 so I will just print this one here as well.

Sura 5 ayah 51 reads:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors of each other. And he amoungst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

To fully understand who it means by the words Jews and Christians its best to read Sura 60 ayahs 7 to 9. Then I can give you the full explanation.

Sura 60 ayah 7:

It may be that god will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things); And god is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

ayah 8:

God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing with them: For god loveth those who are just.

ayah 9:

God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Sura 60 is the fourth of the ten Medina Sura's which all deal with different inportant aspects of life in the Ummat.
This Suras point is regarding the social relations with non muslims and non believers. Of these two groups being talked about a further distinction between them is given, Those who try to cause harm to you and those who don't basically.

This sura was revealed around A.H. 8 after the pegans had broken the treaty of Hudaibiya.

Ayah 7 is telling usthat though there may be apparant enemies who have a religious hatred or enmity or persecution towards you this may be due to there own ignorance or overzeal in their soul. but these people can change and may nolonger pose no threat to you or your faith. The person may even become a Muslim one day as God forgives and knows all. An example of this is the case of Hadrat 'Umar, who was a different person before and after he converted to Islam.

So Muslim's should hate evil but not neccessarily those who commit wrong acts as they be ignorant etc and may one day change, and its your place as a Muslim to forgive them and treat them gindly if they do stop being a threat.

ayah 8 is telling us that Non Muslims and non believers who do not try to harm us or our faith should be treated with kindness and equitably as Allah loves those who are just regardless if they are believer or not. An so it is permissable to seek aid and help and friendship from this group. On the other hand ayah 9 tells us that we should avoid those people who do try to cause us harmor try to damage our faith. Not only should we not make friends with these people we should not seek help from them if there are Muslim's or other people who do not have an issue with us around in the local area.

The Sura you printed is giving a very basic version of the above as any body reading it who happens to be reading the whole of the qur'an and not just select passages will know what it means.

for example I have many christian and Jewish friends and we thoughelly enjoy talking about our faiths and teaching each other towards each others faith. My friend craig I have known for well over 18 years and he is a non believer and hates the concept of God yet he does not press his views on me or vice versa. If he asks a question then I will answer it and he enjoys chatting about faith and non faith issues.

All those friend ships are perfectly Halah and beneficial for everyone.

adib

Salaam,

Bubba frets you printed 5,75 as saying "They surely are infidels who say, 'God is the third of three'; for there is but one God; and if they do not refrain from what they say, a severe punishment shall light on those who are unbelievers." which it does not, but I think I know which ayah you mean. I will check when I get home today. But for now I will deal with what that ayah actually says which is:

christ the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; Many were the Apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; Yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

This ayah comes from a section of Sura five that is talking about Jesus, I think the ayah you ment comes a few ayah's before this one. Anyway in this particular ayah the subject been tackled is that of the Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God.

The first part of the ayah is saying that Jesus was an apostle sent by God like all the others who had been sent before him. The next part refers to Mary the mother of Jesus. It says that she was a truthfull woman, the reason for this is that Mary never claimed that she was the Mother of God (like some Christian sects believe) and that she never said that her child was the son of God.

It further goes onto say that both had to eat food. The fact that they both had to eat food ment that they were mortal and if they had to eat food to live. If they had to eat food then you had to also, by means of deduction, had to go to the toilet.
Such acts are not befiting that of a all mighty god, and so one case of many made in the Qur'an that shows that Jesus was niether God or son of God.

The last point being made is that while there are many clear signs that elude to Jesus not being God, the Christians fail to see them and continue to misguide them selves.


You also printed some of sura 47 ayah 4 as an example of voilence towards non Muslim's. I'm not sure if I will have time right now but I will try to answer this ayah now aswell.

Firstly the ayah you mentioned is in the first sura of a series of three suras (47 - 49). these three suras all deal with the organisation of the Muslim Ummah (community) for external defense and internal relations. Sura 47 dates from around the first year of the Hijra, when the Muslim's were under threat of extiction by invasion forces sent from Mecca. this Sura deals with the necessity of defense against foes by courage and strenuous fighting.

This Sura can be roughly broken in to two and as such ayahs 1 -19 deals with aggresive hostility to Faith and truth and that it should be dealt with firmly and god will guide them.

The last half condems faint heartedness, those who strive and those turn away will be sorted out.

If we read from ayah 1 to 6:

Those who reject god and hinder (mankind) from the straight path of God, - Their deeds will God render astray (from their mark).

But those who believe and work good deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (revelation) sent down to Muhammad -- for it is the truth from their Lord, - He will remove from them their ills and improve their conditions.

This because those reject God follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord: Thus doth God set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.

therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when you have thouroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): there after (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself); But (He lets you fight) in order to test you, Some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, - He will never let their deeds be lose.

soon will He guide them and improve their condition,

And admit them to the garden which He has announced for them.

Firstly in ayah 1 it mentions that those who hinder people from worship will find that their deeds will miss its mark regardless of what they do. this is because Muslims believe that God is the source of all energy and life. If the wicked should try to persecute man or seduce them from faith the result will be the opposite of what they intended. true believers who have persecution put upon them will only have their faith increased and it will not deminish.

Ayah two is the oppostite end of the spectrum. The word condition can also be replaced with the word 'state' as the arabic word Bal means state or condition, both can be used in the above ayah. This state or condition does not just mean the external effect but also the internal i.e. the Heart and mind.
What has to be understood is that the removal of ill's can be that of physical or mental ills. This is because a true believer does not worry or concern him self over small things. An example of this is that in our times its most people's dreams to earn lots of money and to be financily secure, but when people seek this no matter how much they have its not enough. If they have assets of a million pounds they still worry about their financees.

Where as for a Muslim he should put his trust in God and so if some thing happens then he knows that Allah will ease his burden and look after him and his family. So as such while a man should work and earn money he should not worry about not having enough money saved and should focus on worship and the positive things in life.

Man kind learns its greatest spiritual lessons from by parables and similitudes from things that happen in the wider world. If someone was to go after a mirage or a thing that has no real existence then that person will never reach his goal. On the other hand a person who follows the guidence of God will be led onto an existance where he will be happier in mind, sounder in mind and firmer in life generally for every moment that he lives.

Ayah four moves onto the Muslims should conduct them selves when at war. It tells us that when a Muslim has to fight he should do so with the utmost vigour and that he should strike at the most vital points, both literally and figuratively. as the expression says "You can't fight with kids gloves".

When at war the aim is to defeat the enermy, what this means is that the war should be raged until the enermy is subdued and has no longer a desire to fight. Once this is achieved then arrangments should be made with them to bring them under some form of control where they will not try to cause conflict with you again. Once the enermy is bought under control generosity (the release of prisoners without ransom for example) or ransom is recommended.

The believers are tested in faith by the extent to which they be have and are willing to make sacrifices, even to the laying down of their life; while the enemies are tested as to whether they would repent and let the righteous live in peace and security.

The "guide them" mentioned in ayah 5 is that God will guide those who are slain on their spiritual journey after death. their minds and hearts will be more settled and at rest, and their spiritual satisfaction will be greater.

Ayah 6 is talking about the state of bliss as declared in revelation to be destined for those who serve God.

thats that sorted I think, I will be back on Monday inshallah.

adib

Adib,
the main problem with your argument in comparing religious-based violence to violence based on "atheist" ideals (note, however, that acceptance of the theory of evolution does not automatically equate with atheism) is this:

Any scientific theory is a man-made entity, and as such can be open to interpretation and abuse by man (this doesn't condone the abuse of course). What ought to happen in an ideal scientific community is that the majority viewpoint throughout all of the scientific population should prevail to discount the minority viewpoints. Not an absolutely foolproof method, as the minority viewpoints may in fact turn out to be more valid, but this needs debate and research to establish the facts that are supported by evidence.

You may say that the same thing is true of religion, and of the inerpretation of religious scripture. However, I, as an agnostic, have great difficulty in accepting the notion that the word of an omnipotent, all-powerful God would allow his word to be corrupted and abused by man. Otherwise, what is the point of having his word at all if it's only a half-truth? A very dangerous situation to have, seeing that religious believers believe their own interpretation with great fervour, and denounce all others(including other religions) as heretics, blasphemers, infidels etc. Such religious fervour invites intolerance and violence, especially as nearly all religions see themselves as being the ultimate truth, and not open to question.

In my humble opinion, the very fact that there are so many different religions, and so many interpretations of individual religions, only serves to underline the fact that religion is a man-made entity, and not divinely inspired. Perhaps God should, in fact, worship man, as is it not man that has created the idea of God?

Karl

I will be here on Monday inshallah to reply to you. sorry for keeping you waiting.

Adib

Salaam

firstly I just want to say in regards to America being non seculer as Bush mixes his faith with politics that I was watching the news the other morning and a question was asked which was:

"Does your faith play a part in the way you run the country?"

Bush's reply to this was "I don't expect you or the people to agree with me on Religion and infact no president should impose his religious beliefs on others".

As the American constitution is ment to be seculer and Bush himself says that he does not impose his beliefs on the nation then obviousley he must be running the country as secular. As by your own definition if some one says they are following or doing some thing that their actions say their not actually following or doing it they are still following or doing it because they said they are.

Or inother words the whole argument is circuler thinking just as yours is about Terrorists being proper Muslims.


Anyway I think your argument about mans law and Gods law is not very good. Firstly we have to understand that God created us with free will and in doing so gave us the ability to do right from wrong. This is because if someone can't choose to do a bad thing if they want to then they have not got free will, and as such is the case with free will everyone see's things differently because of it.

If I was to write some sentance down you will find that some will think its funny, others will find it offensive, others will think its stupid etc. Why? Because of free will. Our personality is made up from many many factors, what our upbringing was like, the stories we are told when a child, friends that we have etc. This all comes down to free will.

If God stopped us from being able to interpret things how we see fit, even if it is wrong then we would no longer have free will would we.

Lets move on a little here though,

When God created Adam and Eve they lived in a state of purity within Paradise. They had such purity that they had no concept of wrong or bad as they only had good intentions. But Shaytan managed to influence them both to eat from the fruit of the forbidden tree. Unlike Christianity Islam does not say that the tree was the tree of knowledge . Anyway after eating the fruit they became aware of each others differences. They both felt embarrased by their being exposed in front of each other and gathered leaves to make cloths.

This shows that mankind was in such a state of purity that they did not notice differences between one other and the fact that they were naked. By eating the fruit they had become self aware and could see each others differences and it embarrased them.

Both Adam and Eve realised that they had sinned and both asked God for forgivness, whom forgave them both.
but though God had forgiven them they had lost the state of purity they were in, and as such could no longer stay in paradise.

God told them that from now on that their ofspring (mankind) would have to earn their place in paradise. adam was very upset about this and spoke to God saying "I had full knowledge of God and yet I stilled went astray, how would our offspring without this knowledge know of you" and God replied that he would send many messengers to them throughout the ages to guide mankind. An so Adam became the first of 124,000 Prophets sent to mankind.

The most well known Prophets and Messengers are Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Muhammad. All the Prophets taught mankind the oneness of God. Some of these Prophets, Messengers, were given books or scripture at appointed times. These books contained what was needed for that time as mankind was not ready, on a mental level, for the full revelation which is the Qur'an.

Such books were not written by God but rather by man. or example the Qur'an was not written by God nor by Muhammad but rather by several of his companions whom he qouted the Qur'an's sura'a and ayah's to when they where revealed.

the only thing that god wrote is the ten commandments on stone that Moses destroyed.

All these books were trusted onto mankind to read and follow, but because mankind has free will then he could choose to ignore it etc, or he could add or take things from it. the excetion to this is the Qur'an because it is the last revelation to mankind.

Muslim's believe in the Torah and Injeel (Old and new testament) but not the ones we have today. For example Jesus preached the Injeel but he never wrote it down or told others to write it down, and the bible we have today only contains some of the true teachings of Jesus.

The Qur'an on the other hand, God has told us, is protected from change and the earliest copies of the Qur'an match the ones we have today perfectly.

Now you see mankind is trusted to follow the previous books etc, but they did not, and added what they wanted and took things from it.

For example the Torah talks about the comming of a new messenger/prophet whom was Jesus. When Jesus came only some followed what he preached at first. But many years after his death the bible was written hundreds and people was lead of the true path and so Muhammad was sent with the final message for mankind.

Muslim's believe in all Prophets before Muhammad no matter what faith they come form, but that what they originally taught has been changed and added to from what was revealed. All the other faiths have risen from these Prophets as they were changed and added to over time.


As for God's law not being interpreted differently, this is silly. we have already seen that mankind has free will etc and in doing so every person has a different personality and so all people see things differently.

but not just that, it also depends on what your reading. for example the Qur'an is only Al qu'ran when written in its original classical arabic otherwise its just a translation of the Qur'an. as anyone will tell you all scripture looses some thing through translation and the meaning is lost. This is espessially the case in classical arabic as it is a very rich and diverse language.

So natuarally after losing meaning through translation its obvious that people can get different ideas of whats being said from it.

as said before people can get different meanings from reading the same sentance. Mans law is open to interpretation and falls foul to the same things that happen to religions. If someone only reads one ayah and then kills someone thinking its ok, is that God's fault because they could not be bothered to read the whole thing, no its not.

People have free will and as such all people see things differently there is no universal thing that can be seen in a differeny way because all people are unique.

Heres a book that might be worth while reading:

What's right with Islam by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

ISBN: 0-06-058272-3

Adib,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree over the point of God allowing man to misinterpret his divine word. I don't think I have a bad argument here. It's all very well God giving man free will, but if man then uses that free will to corrupt God's divine message (whether intentionally or not) it makes it pointless having a divine message at all.

Karl

Actaully the reason why God left it open for man to corrupt religious texts is becasue its a test of sorts. Plus what one has to consider is that if someone is practising that faith and has no knowledge of it being changed and corrupted, then they are still worshipping God and will go to paradise. It is only when a Messenger comes and reveals a new message to replace the old and they ignore the new message that problems evolve.

For example though I can safely say that Christians who practised the followings of Christianity before the arrival of Muhammad will most likely go to paradise (the same chance a Muslim has) I and most Muslim's are unable to tell you what will happen to Chrisitans who ignore the new message when they heard it.

So its not a case of because thisman corrupted God's teachings you who follow it are all comdemned to hell. the people who knowingly corrupted the text will be punished, but thouse who where and are not arrre of it will be judged fairly as believers.

Another thing is that peoples who have not heard any message (like natives in the Amazon rain forest etc) they will be judged on their deeds as well as they can't be held responcible for not following the message if they never heard it.

In that way Islam is unique.

An if you read that book I mentioned I am sure you will find it very interesting. Its talking about Islam and America and its a message to both groups. It is written by the Imaam of the Mosque that is down the road from where the twin towers used to be.

Anyway I hope you find time to read it as you might find it helpfull in understanding the difference between Islam in its truth and Islam as practised by people after the Prophet. And it brings a greater understanding between our two peoples.

It comes highly recommended.

An of course its your right to agree to disagree on any issues of Islam, I only protest when you disagree with some thing that is cultural and not Islamic but you think is Islamic.

Take care

Adib

Two questions.

Firstly.

Why would an omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerfull god need to test his creations?

He either already knows the results, and therefore doesn't need to test. Or he's not sure, thus not omnipotent.

A christian practising before the teachings of mohamed has already denied allah (ie false gods) and would be revolted at the idea of the koranic heaven, would he not?

But don't take my word for it ask a christian.

Questions over.


But as an aside is the koran gods words, spoken by god, not by a human or anyone else?

Bubba,
we all know the answer to your last "aside" question - the Quran was spoken by Muhammad, not by God.

The only written text that is said to have definitely been created by God himself is the Ten Commandments that was handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai.

Of course, these texts were given to Moses after he had spent 40 days and 40 nights on Mount Sinai on his own (very suspicious, if you ask me). Also, Moses then smashed the Commandments to bits, thereby destroying any chance of people analysing these stones for true divine origin.

Moses was of considerable rank in the Egyptian court before the Exodus, and would have been familiar with ancient Egyptian (pagan) religion. Of course, the remarkable similarity of the Ten Commandments to some of the statements that were written in the ancient Egyptian "Book of the Dead" - a pagan text, are purely coincidental.

Karl

Cheers Karl but I was under the impression that the koran was the word of god. Literaly. Not mohamed. I was wondering what Adib would say?

Bubba,
Yes, I know. I wasn't having a go at you then. It's all down to a matter of faith if you believe that Muhammad was reciting the words of God.

Why does God need a Messenger? He apparently spoke clearly enough to Moses by himself at the Burning Bush.

Karl

Sorry mate didn't mean to snap.

I was under the impression that the koran was taken to be the literal word of god. I didn't think there was allowed to be any scope for interpretation, and I was wondering what Muzzakboy felt.

That's right, it is supposed to be the literal word of God. Unfortunately, it's the literal word of God that had to be passed first through Muhammad (His Messenger), and because Muhammad was (supposedly) uneducated and illiterate, it had to be transcribed by others as he recited it. Hmmm.....

Salaam, Hi again Bubba frets long time no see.

As to your first question:

"Why would an omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerfull god need to test his creations?

He either already knows the results, and therefore doesn't need to test. Or he's not sure, thus not omnipotent."

God did not test his creation because he did not know but rather as fairness and as a benefit for mankind. Think about it logiclly and you will understand. How would you like to be judged and punished for some thing before you have even done it. For example you live you life and on the day of judgement you are told "You will go to hell because even if I sent a message to mankind to worship me you would not have", I think the first thing you would do is protest and say "You never gave me that chance I would have believed in you if you had sent a message", for no other reason than that you now have full acknowledgement of Gods existance and that you have been judged for some thing unfairly as you never hand the chance yourself to find out what you would or would not have done.

Because mankind is given the message of Gods existance and that we should worship Him and practice the faith if we ignore it and leave it aside we can't use the above qoute on judgement day because you had your chance and God already knew that you would not believe but if he judged you before you had lived or on some thing you had no knowledge for then you thei ndividual would not have known on judgement day.

Is it fair to judge someone for some thing they have not had chance to do? No it is not and so mankind is given its chance for our own benefit.

As for the other point

'A christian practising before the teachings of mohamed has already denied allah (ie false gods) and would be revolted at the idea of the koranic heaven, would he not?'

I think I understand what your saying, but what you have to understand is that in the bible it says about the coming of a new messanger, as Jesus tells his companions "It is imperitive that I go, for if I do not go then the comforter will not come, and he has many things upon which to tell you that I can not tell you now for you are nor able for them now" or some thing on those lines - sorry my bible knowledge is a bit rusty I will try and look it up if I get the chance to give you a more accurate wording. But anyway thats the jist of it.

The christian church has desided that this comforter is the holy Ghost but Muslim's believe that it is talking about the coming of Muhammad. and Muhammad in Arabic means comforter.

An so it thats why its inportant for Muslim's to speek to all people about Islam. Anyway I usually end up in a massive debate with Christians about this stuff and don't wish to do so here. I usually win or they just stop replying because they can't answer the points raised.


as for


"But as an aside is the koran gods words, spoken by god, not by a human or anyone else?"

As I have already said and karl stated the only thing written by god is the tablets given to Moses.

the Qur'an is the spoken word of God passed down through the angel Jibreal to Muhammad whom then dictated the Qur'an to his companions who wrote it down. Muhammad used to get them to repeat what they had written down so far at various times to make sure they had all written down exactly what he had said. Plus Muhammad himself had to recite all of the qur'an that had been revealed to Muhammad once a year and twice on the last year of his life to the angel jibreal.

the whole Qur'an was finished in the life time of Muhammad and the oldest existing text is exactly the same as the modern ones we have to day.

Muslims also (as I have already said) only believe that the Qur'an is the word of god when it is writeen in classical Arabic as thats the langugage it was revealed in. translating it from that to other languages loses its beauty and a lot of its meaning, thats why the translations of the qur'an is seen as a poor substitute and why all Muslims should learn classical arabic.


Bobba I recommend to you that book I mentioned in the other posts to you, I hope you both make the time and effert to read it as it is really very Good.

adib
adib

Salaam again,

just to reply about:

"I was under the impression that the koran was taken to be the literal word of god. I didn't think there was allowed to be any scope for interpretation, and I was wondering what Muzzakboy felt."


The Qur'an is taken as the literal recorded word of God revealed to Muhammad. It is a written form of what was revealed. As I already said once, the Qur'an its self was written by several people all who recorded it from Muhammad.

Interpretation of the qur'an can vary deciding on what choice of words you use. for example the Qur'an under most translations calls the world a vast expanse, but the Arabic word used also means ostrich egg shaped, i.e this refers to the fact that the world is round but not a perfect circle as its 'squashed' at the poles and that the actaul shape changes through the ages due to the wieght of the polar capes through the ages.

Anyway most translaters choose to say that "More over He has made earth as a vast expanse", and while this is an accurate translation its also accurate to translate as "More over He has made the earth ostrich egg shaped.

Both of these are accurate, but one is choosen over the other, and in most cases its because the Qur'an talks about some thing that was not known at that point and so the translater puts it as the first one because he has no understanding of what the other meaning actaully means. For example yusaf Ali translation says as a wide expanse but he has a foot note saying that it also means ostrich egg shaped.

Another thing to bear in mind is that their is a massive difference between shariah and the Qur'an. Shariah is the interpretation of gods law from the Holy qur'an and on many issues scholors have looked at the qur'an and come up with a fatwa on that issue.

for example in some Muslim countries women can drive and in other women can not. Their is no Islamic reason in the qur'an for why women can not drive cars, and so a scholor will say that it is halal (permissable) for a woman to drive a car. But another scholor might be influenced by culture and form his own opinion and say they can not drive.

the issue is Shariah on Modern things is an interpretation of God's law to suit the issue being dealt with, but as man is deciding then man can be influenced from out side sources and thats why shariah varies so much.

My time is running out I have to go sorry.

Adib

Don't apologise I always enjoy your replies.

But I do feel I owe you an apologie. I re-read this thread and was actualy quite appaled at myself. Over the whole course of the disscusions I've been quite aggressive and down right arsy at times. Not that I evey actually agree with you mind but I shouldn't be so disbaraging about something so importent to you s your religeon.

Anyway...

If god knows and understands all, which by all your reasoning he must, it still seems pointless that he judges you. He knows everything about you'll do before your born. He knows the outcome of every descission you make before you arrive at it. In effect before he's created you he knows whether you bound for torment in hell or all the pleasure of paradise. Yet he still wants to judge?

In effect he creates a lot of humans purely to go to hell, and the koranic descrpition of hell aint nice. Thats love for you.

Don't say we turn our back on him. Because he knows this before we've been created. He's sadistic.

The second point, hmmn, now my biblical knowledge is limited but jesus (christ, whatever) said there is no way to the father except through me. This kind of nullifies mohamed. Also he talks of the second coming. When he would come like a theif in the night. Not like another prophet with a new religeon. Unless of course mohamed is the false prophet of revelations!

You take it easy now, talk to you soon.

Bubba