h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Very interesting entry. It is always good to hear another source of information about something that is a big issue of public discussion. This is I think very important.
Interesting also, because it again shows how open to interpretation such texts are, which I think is a falacy of all organized religion, since often interpretation tend to be defended with, well, religious fervor, and are seldom open to discussion

grammar: Islam with a capitol I

spelling: dEstruction, not dIstruction



[and that's just the title]

ok sorry.

Adib

My grammer is not to good sorry.

Adib

My best-friend's father is Muslim. He is the most peaceful person I know. He also explained that the Jihad are a group of radicals that took the texts entirely out of proportion. It likens to the Christian radicals in Ireland. And don't forget that whole business with the Spanish Inqusition...

There are good and bad amongst all walks of human life.

Adib

That is the point, exactly.

Unfortunatly people seem to see the actions of the bad ones more than the actions of the good ones.

Adib

That is very true. The human species tends to pay more attention to controvercy than positive aspects. You could probably relate that to emotions... you know.. the whole thing about the fact that you won't find someone crying out to people that so and so is doing nice things... but you would see him crying out to people that so and so is shooting random people from his apartment window. We tend to not bring attention to the good things that happen, when on a normal level. We will call attention to people that do EXTREMELY good things, like if someone donates $1,000,000 to a charity that many people care about. Otherwise, it's just not worth hearing about.
It comes down to what is treated as normal behaviour, and what isn't. We pay attention to "abnormal behaviour" because it catches our attention, unlike "normal behaviour".

Yeah thats right.

Adib

AA. So Mycelium can you tell me my other grammer mistakes.
It will be appreciated.

Adib

no problem, mate. i'm away from home at the moment, but i'll proof read it when i get some time over the next few days.

Ok thats cool. Do you want me to put you down as a editer of the site or would you rather just tell me?

Adib

Good stuff.

To clarify, (pbuh) = "peace be upon him", right?

S

Yes that is right.

ADib

This is indeed an interesting entry, made all the more interesting by the specific choices of Qu'ranic passages that show Islam to be a peaceful religion whilst ignoring all the more violent passages, intolerance of other faiths and the role of abrogation within Islam.

In short, this is a sanitized presentation whose lineage owes more to an evangelical sales brochure than a considered presentation of the Theosophy of Islam. One particular Surrah was noticeable by its absence.

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5

The author has omitted several important points. Two will be covered here.

Democracy

Islam is much more than a religion, it is an all encompassing way of life, which defines that only Allah has the right to make laws, and that all human law must be derived from the teaching of his messenger (Mohammed). This means that the democratic process itself, where law is made by Parliament is unislamic, and one of the fundamental aims of Islam is the destruction of the democratic process to be replaced by Shariah Law.

Islam and democracy are mutually incompatible. This is the main reason that democracy seems to have so much trouble finding a foothold in Islamic countries.

Abrogation

The Qu'ran is claimed by Muslims to have been delivered to Mohammed over a 23-year period, and is a record of his life and actions over that period. This is supplemented by the Hadith, the record of his life by his initial followers, and is held up as part of Islamic teaching so that both the words and actions in life of Mohamed are an example to all subsequent followers. However, there would appear to be contradictions in some of the instructions.

The most commonly quoted Surah since September the 11th has been "there must be no compulsion in religion....", with a variety of other peaceful Surrahs rolled out to prove the peace of Islam. However, Mohammed’s life fell into three distinct periods, i.e. Mecca, Medina and Mecca again. Based in Mecca, the followers were a small sect, and were victimized. Making waves brought problems from them, and all the peaceful passages come from this period. On leaving Mecca, and setting up in Medina, the instructions were to defend themselves. On the return to and violent conquest of Mecca, the religion became much more violent. This created seeming conflict within the Qu’ran, with different instructions in contradiction. However, as the general situations were different, it is logical that the instructions should be different to deal with the problems specific to that time.

This process of deciding which Surah is appropriate to the time, and which of two or more contradicting Surah should be applied is called abrogation. When you look at later Surahs, Islam becomes a lot less peaceful. All the early peacefull Surrahs are abrogated (replaced) by later examples, some of which are listed below.

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74

“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52

Now, what we see here is this: the Qu’ran orders Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah’s kingdom on earth (all of the earth) by any means. Most Islamic scholars say that one verse of the Qu’ran (9:5) abrogates 124 verses, which are basically all the verses that talk about peace and forgiveness. The final instruction to his followers on the matter abrogates all 124 other passages, and reads.

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5
All of a sudden, Islam seems a little aggressive.

The article is quite simply deceitful, and is designed to sell Islam not educate. If the author wants to reply, perhaps he can explain why he omitted abrogation, and more importantly, omitted these Surrahs.

Graham Spence

If you hold on for a bit while I just grab my Quran to answer your points. Plus print of what you have just said.

Adib

Thanks. I will be back online tomorrow, and will check in then,

Graham

Assalaam alaikum

Here we go...........

To begin a short note on my thoughts of coming accross these questions. Firstly I thought what the hell is this guy talking about. So I thought maybe he was out to discredit Islam but after reading his reply I get the sense that these are honest questions. I think maybe you have not actually read the Quran but looked on a web site or read a book that trys to discredit Islam so here I will correct your statements.

'that show Islam to be a peaceful religion whilst ignoring all the more violent passages, intolerence of other faiths and the role of abrogation within Islam' - to be blunt all the verses you have quated are only fully understood by reading the verses before and after it. Which is what I will do here along with a bit of commentry. Sorry but I am learning to become a Islamic scholer one day so I hope next time you will do more home work on the subject.

The verse from Sura 9 is out of context let me reveal why.

Sura 9 (At tauba - Repentance) is following on from Sura 8 which dealt with the questions arising from the outset of the life of a new organised nation which are:

1)Questions of Defense when under attack
2)distribution of war acquisitions after victory
3)Virtues needed for concerted action, clemancy and consideration for one's own and for enemies in the light of victory.

Sura 9 is dealing with what to do if the enemy breaks faith and is guilty of treachery. No nation can go on if the other one breaks a treaty at will. The faith above we are referring to is the faith that the other party will not break the treaty.
If a treaty is broken that a period of four maonths should be allowed after the denunciations of the treaty and that due protection should be accorded in the intervening period so that there is always a door open for repentance and reunion with the people of Allah (Muslims) but if they do not make peace and war must be undertaken then it must be pushed with vigour.
To summerise this if they break a treaty then you give them four months. If in that four months they come and say sorry and wish to make a new treaty and show they want peace then you (muslims) should make a new treaty with them and should not harm them. If they do not make peace and leave you alone and do not threaten or attack you in that four month period then you (Muslims should not attack untill they do. If they attack you in that four months period and continue to do so after the four months then you may then attack them and keep attacking them untill they do ask for peace or do not attack you any more.
Meaning that you should go to war with them but if they afterwards seek peace then you must grsnt them peace.

To sum up the first 3 sections of the sura.

ayaats 1 -29) Treaties with those pagens who have treacherously broken there their terms are denounced, but for four months time is given for adjustments or repentance. Pagens to be excluded from the sacred Mosques. Infidelity to be fought.

Ayaats 30-42)The people of the book have obscured the light of Allah, but the truth of Allah must prevail over all. We must be ready to fight for our faith if threatened or we are not worthy to up hold Allahs banner.

Ayaats 43-72)The hypocrites and there double dealings - there evil ways pointed out. There punishment will be sure as the blessings of the righteous, reffering to the day of judgement.

Right dealing with the verse you quoted lets quote from ayaat 1 up to ayaat 6 along with commentry on each verse, its going to be a long night sniff.

(9:1) A (Declaration) of immunity from allah and his messanger, To those of the pegans with whom you have contracted mutual alliances:-

The word immunity comes from the Arabic word Baraat but it may not be a word correctly represented for the Arabic word. The eneral meaning (sense) of the word was found in the above text but in verse 3 the periprasis 'dissolve treaty obligations' goes some way to explain what it fully means.The Pagens and enemys of Allah very often made peace treatys with the Muslims. Unfortunatly they always seemed to break there treaties when it was in there best interest. Where as the Muslims never broke the treaties. After some years it became apparent that that the treaties where no good so the Muslims decided to dissolve them. When this was done they where given four months notice and a chance for those who faithfully observed there pledges to continus there alliance.
I think that covers this ayaat.

(9:2) Go ye, then for four months, (as you will), throughout the land, but know that you cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject him.

The reject him is referring to Islam and/or the peace treaties signed with the Muslim people.

(9:3)And an announcement from Allah and his messanger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the great pilgimage, that Allah dissolve treaty obligations with the pagens.
If then, they repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah, and proclaim a grievious chastisement to those who reject faith.

(9:4) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagens with whom you have entered in to alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aight, nor aided any one against you. So fullfill your engagements with them to the end of there term: For Allah loves the righteous.

The sacred duty of fullfilling all obligations of all kinds to Muslims and non Muslims on public and private life is a cardinal feature of Islam. What it means is that the Muslims don't break all the treaties. They have to spend time and think and after care full consideration towards cases where there has been fidelity and not treachery. Muslima are enjoined to give the strictist fidelity as it is part of righteousness and our duty to Allah.

(9:5) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagens where ever you find them, and sieze them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish reguler prayers, and pay zakat then open the way for them: for Allah is oft forgiving, most mercifull.

Right this is the ayaat you quoted. The emphasis is on the first clause. Meaning it is only after the first four months of grace have past and the other party has not shown any signs of desisting from their treacherous designs by right conduct. Then the state of war intervenes - between faith and unfaith.
When war becomes inevietable, it must be prosecuted with vigour. As a English phrase says you can not fight with kid gloves.The fighting takes many forms but there is room for repentance and amandment from the guilty party. If that takes place then the Muslims duty is towards forgiveness and making peace.
The repentance must be sincereand is shown through conduct. In that case Muslims are not to bar the doors against the repentant. Muslims must do all we can to make ths easy by remembering that Allah is oft-forgiving and most merciful.

(9:6) If one amoungst the pagens ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men without knowledge.

Even amongst the enermies of Islam there may be those who do not wish to fight. If they ask for Asylum then it is granted them so they can hear the words of Allah. If they accept the words then they become Muslims and brothers to youand no further questions arise. If they do not see the way of Allah and turn to Islam then they recieve double protection:
1) from the Muslims fighting against his people,
2) From his own people because they detached them selfs from them.
Both kinds of protection should be ensuared for the person. Meaning they should be escorted to a place where they can be safe . Such people only err from ignorance and there may be much good in them.

Thats that verse out of the way. Lets move on to Democracy.
To a certain degree you may be right but its the context you mean by democracy. If you mean as in there is no voting system then you are right. But if you mean by democracy where people are able to vote people in to power to rule then Mulsims do not have a right or obligation to change these things.
For instance not every Muslim in America or Britain are out trying to distroy the Democratic system in these countries.

Abrogration.

Lets look at your so called contradictions oh you did not put any. Instead you put a load of passages that say islam is bloody lets see if your right.
Oh and one more thing Islam started in Mecca and yes they where oppressed and moved to Madina. There they where greeted more freindly and the religon spread through the land.
Then what happened was at a later period they made a peace treaty with Mecca and so thats how it was for a while. Then one day the people of Mecca attacked a caravan (christian caravan) which broke the treaty between Mecca and Madina. This is because the Christians living in Madina where under protection of the Muslims. Thats why they went back and invaded Mecca. The Quranic sura's where revealed at the times they where needed and one thing to remember is that the Sura's in the Quran are not in the same order as they where revealed. So that means your little ' the Quran gets more voilent nearer the end of the Quran has no bearings as they are not in the order they where revealed. With the prophets (pbuh) permission and how he told them they arranged the Suars in to the way they are in the Quran. For example it would not be good to have the first sura for good and the next for voilence and back to peace in the next would it?

Sura 4 is dealing with broadly speaking two things.
The first half is talking about women, orphans, inheritance, marriage and family rights.
The second is dealing with the recalcitrants in the larger family, the community at madinah, the hypocrites and there accomplices.

Your qoutes come from the second half (4:74), (4:89) and (4:95) respectivly.

4:74) Let thoughs fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the heareafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value).

First of all it is not talking about every one having to fight. It is referring to those who are fit and healthy to take part. Secondly and to correct you. As we all ready know this Sura is referring to the community of madinah along with other things. What this verse and those before and after is referring to is that if the safety of the Muslims is threatened then it is permissable to fight as long as it is for Allah and not for ones own needs. It is not contradictory with the peace full passages as already mentioned in the entry it is permissable to defend your self if you are under attack. What it is actually doing is stating that when the time comes that you have to fight there are no losers on the side of Allah as they will be rewarded by Allah as long as they follow the rules of Islam on this subject.

The next verse on your list is 4:89. Lets look at the verse before For and after this to put it in full perspective light.

(4:88) Why should you be divided in to two partiesabout the hypocrites? Allah hath cast them off for there evil deads. Would you guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way?
for those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way, never shalt thou find the way.

When the desertion of the hypocrites at Uhad nearly caused a disaster on the Muslim cause there was a feeling amongst the Muslims of Madinah against them. One party wanted to kill them while the other party wanted to leave them in peace. To stop this opinion difference from splitting the Muslims this verse and the next ones where revealed. These verses created the policy of dealing with with those who cause trouble in this area. Hypocrite is one who says he believes but does not really. So he actuaaly helps the enemys out. It was clear that these people caused a threat to the Muslim people if they where admitted in to counsels and where also a cause of demoralisation. So much caution was used but no extreme measure was taken against them. On the contry they were given a chance of making good. If they made a sacrifice for there cause ("flee from what is forbidden," see your verse), their conduct purged their previous cowardice, and there sincerity entitled them to be taken back. But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion which is enforced by all nations actually at war. Even so, a humane exception was made in the two cases specifeid in 4:90.

(4:89) They but wish that ye should reject faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from there ranks until they flee in the way of Allah(from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them where ever you find them; And (in any case) take no friends or helpers from there ranks:-

So continuing on from the last verse we can quite clearly see it is referring to what you call traiters, or Spys and have commited treason. Which is punishable to death in all countries including England. Thouth England had signed a agreement that no one will have death as a punishment it still states in the law books on punishment for treason as death. This verse on its own does sound bad but it actually leads straight in to the next one. Oh and we can see that you have not qouted the full verse. oops.

The word flee above comes from the word hijrat which means fleeing from all that is forbidden. This includes the leaving of a place where the practice of religion is forbidden. But it is more general in times of war. If a man is willing to submit to discipline and refrain from infringing then he has proved his fidelity and may be treated as a member of the community at war.
On the other hand if he by false pretences comes in to the inner councels merely to betray them then he may rightly be treated as a traitor or deserter and be charged for his crimes. He is intitlied to no mercy as he is worse than the enemy as he said he was one of you in order to spy on you and is actually of the enermy.

(4:90) Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah has opened no way for you (to war against them).

Ouch there goes that disception you speak of. I mean if I was you I would have at least looked up in decent Quran what is being said before and after these verses. Anyway to explain whats being said lets review it as usual. Except is what this ayaat starts with. This exception refers to sieze them and slay them, the penelty for repeated desertion. Even after such desertion , exemption is granted in two cases. One is where the deserter takes asylum with a tribe whom there is a treaty of peace and amity with. This is because it is considered that this other tribe will keep him causing trouble or fighting the Mulsims. In our era it is called disarming and rendering harmless.
The second case is if the person does not wish to fight against the Muslims or the enermy tribe which may be his own. But he must make a realapproach by giving guarentees of his sincerity. To day it would be called Parole but the Islamic word used is actually much milder than that in modern military codes, which only grant the privalage to prisoner of war, not to those who have deserted from the army. This is the position of the hypocrites but humanity and policy treated them with great leniency.

The word approach in this verse does not mean the physical act but rather the mental attitude. This is why the heart is mentioned for sincerity. This vercs is saying that with these people do not go after them as if they had faught against you your difficulties would have been greater. The fact that they are staying neutral is a advantage in its own right and so one should honour there declaration of peace.

That sums up that verse I think, so whats next?

Sura 8 ayaat 60. Firsty lets start with a intro to this Sura so we know what it is talking about.
This Sura is about four things mainly and they are:
1)The question of war booty
2)The true virtues necessary for fighting the good fight
3)Victory against odds
4)clemancy and consideration for ones own sake and for others in the hour of victory.

As regard to war booty the first point I will make is that the Ayaats talking about this is telling us that the Booty belongs to Allah and not us and so we have no right to go to war to get booty. It is only a accidental windfall. No soldier or trooper has any prior right to it.
A good summery of this chapter I read was 'All booty is really at the disposal of Allah's messanger under directions from Allah. Men of faith accept and obey these directions with cheerfulness. Victory and the prize of victory comes from Allah, as was proved at Badr.

As another note The prophet (pbuh) split the war bounty up and gave it to all those who took part or helped out and orphans and the poor and suffering.

8:60 comes under the section dealing with what the battle of Badr showed. Which is that virtue and valour can conquer against odds.

8:65 is saying with the rest (ie 65 - 75) that even ten fold odds against you do not count if you are fighting for truth and faith aginst enermies . But also reminds us of clemavy and consideration in the hour of victory.

We will start with ayaat 58 and work forward from there till 61.

(8:58)If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (there covenant) to them, (so as ) to be on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.

(8:59)Let not the unbelievers think that they have escaped, they will neverfrustrate them.

(8:60)Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

(8:61)But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for he is the one that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Well not much of a explanation needed here now we have more information on this ayaat from the Quran. Looking at the verse you qouted in some detail this is what it means. The immediate occasion of this injunction was the weakness of cavalary and appointments of war in the early days of Islam. But the general meaning is that in every fight physical, mental, moral, spiritual, arm yourselfs with the best weapons and the best arms against your enemy so as to install whole some respect for Muslims and the cause Muslims stand for.

In verse 60 when it says 'and others besides, whom ye may not know' is is telling us muslims that there is always a lurking enermy some where that we do not know about but whom Allah does know about. It is our duty as Muslims to be ready to fight these enermys be it by sword or by mouth.
The last bit is saying that as Muslims we should put all our resources into the couse and that we will be rewarded by Allah for doing it. Allahs rewards will come in various forms and are always more generous than we can think of.
Verse 61 is saying that while we must be ready to fight if we are forced to we should always seek peace even in the middle of a fight. Allah knows best.
Ok moving on a bit now.

(8:65)O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

Ok considering the context of this whole sura as expalined earlier we can see straight away that this is referring th the battle of Badr which the Muslims where out numbered three to one as well as having a lack of proper weapons and equipment. The Muslims won this battle.
This Sura was revealed shortly after this battle.
Basically what is being said is that regardless if you personally win or die there are two things that mean they are sure to win: 1) They have divine aid and secondly that even humanly speaking them who takes up arms against thoughs who believe in what there doing for truth and righeousness are fools. There seeming power is but a broken reed.
Another example is in a battle with the Romans. The Muslims had 3800 men and the Romans had 24,000 men. The Muslims won. All the above Ayaat is saying is that when you have to fight do not be put down by odds as there are no such thing as odds to a true believer.
Wow the end is in sight only a little bit left to clear up and its only 1 in the morning.
You say about 9:14 well lets look at the two before it and see what it says after our usual intro to the Sura. Joke we dealt with this Sura earlier, see the first sura (9:5)

(9:12) But if they violate there oaths after their covenant, and attack your faith, fight ye the chiefs of unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
(9:13)Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the messanger, and attacked you first? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe.
(9:14) Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, and disgrace them help you (to victory) over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers.

Firstly verse 12. Not onlt did the enermies break there oaths shamelessly, but they even taunted the Muslims on their faith and the 'simple minded' way they respected there treaty as if they were afraid to fight.

Verse 13 is making a appeal to Muslims that is look you have to fight these people if they will not leave you in peace because of:
1) there shamless disregard for treaties, 2)There plots at trying to discredit the Prophet (pbuh) and turn him out of Madina, 3) the aggressiveness taken after the treaty of Hubdaibiya, and also because they need to get the manly attribute of fearing Allah more than any man and the need to test there faith by test and trial and struggle and sacrifice.

Verse 14 is saying that Muslims should fight these people and when they win the enermy will feel disgraced and the Muslims wounds will heal. i.e. as in wounds from the assualts, taunts and crualty of the enermy.

Next you say about verse 9:29 which is:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

This verse is referring to when a city has been taken over in war that belonged to the enermy. All religious groups that lived in Muslim citys had to pay the Jizya which is a sort of tax. It was around one dinar a year. It was effectivly for those who where not Muslim and wanted to stay in the city and live under Islamic law. But this tax ment that they did not have to go to war if the Muslims where at war and ment they where under the pertection of the Islamic state meaning that if they where attacked by another city then the Muslims would fight in there defence and those under taking this tax was acknowledged that they would not interfear with the religious beliefs of the other religions in the city and they would leave them alone. Considering when the crusaders took over citys they killed all the Muslims and Jews in them citys a tax for protection was not a bad thing. Plus through out history the best examples of Muslims, Jews and Christians living in peace with each other was in these citys and I think that says a lot. This Tax was not required of the poor, females, children and slaves, monks, hermits and the permently sick. It was only on able bodied males of military age.
The next bit says with willing submission which comes from the arabic word An Yadin, which literally means from the hand, has been variously interpretated. I don't fully accept this interpretation as many scholors point out that a better word for it would have been in token of willing submission in English. Anyway the point is you can call the Jizya a partly symbolic and partly a communtation for military service and partly a protection payment. But as the amount is actually insignifficant we can see that it is more symbolic.
I think that explains that verse.

Last verse is 9:52 which says:

Say: can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Him, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you.

You say it actually says this:

Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you

which is wrong translation.

Anyway lets get explaining. This Ayaat is great. The waiting of the unbelievers and the believers is different in sense. The unbelievers are waiting for disaster on the believers but the believers will either conquer whats against them or die as martyrs in the cause, in either case he/she is happy in the issue. The believers expect punishment on the unbelievers who cause trouble, either through their own instrumentality, or in some other way in Allah's plan, and that the unbeliever would not like it in either case. What this Ayaat means is that in a sense the believers have already run as both in death and life they are happy and believe those who do bad will be punished in this life or the next. Whats so voilent about that?

Well the last sura you did was the one you started with so I wont bother repeating it.

Wow after a Tea break its now 2 in the morning. Oh happy days.
So let me ask what web site did you get that load of lies from?
Hope I have not made you feel like I was patronising you.

So we can see there is no Abrogation, my article is simpally the truth and truth stands out from lies, it is designed to open peoples eyes to the real Islam and not the falseness found every where people go. I omitted those Sura's because as we have just seen every one is referring to self defense as I talked about in my entry.

I wait for your reply.

Allah hafiz

Adib

Oh and when I say 'you' in the above text I mean it as Muslims and you is shorter.

Adib