h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>Annie, Azara, I'd disagree that what we've got here with the 'Pirates' entry is a hiccup in the system. I'd see it more as a case of 'use it or lose it'.<<

Hi BG!

sorry to say I absolutely and vehemently and totally disagree with yor assessment of this type of thing.

(and yes, I'll repeat, I have an entry in PR, which needed very very very little work on it - but I'm seeing things like the Pirate thing get picked...)

Yes, fab article, yes we have to encorage. But...

I agree with Azara and Annie and probably BigAl when I say that this is _exactly_ the reason why I am seriously wondering why people bother. The pirate thing could quite easily have gone into the FM, with a note about how good it is and how it is really nearly ready to go. It would have been out again in a jiffy.

I don't give a flying monkey's if the researcher only comes here once every 6 months - he'd see the message soon enough, and obviously isn't in a hurry.

*trying not to think about conspiracy theories*

As it happens the Sub Editor allocated to that Entry is also doing a Uni Project on...pirates. But anyway. That's neither here nor there.

No Sho, it wouldn't have been in and out in a jiffy. I described a fiddly 12 step process that, on current expectations, would last for at least 3 weeks for steps 1 to 10, and then maybe another couple of months for the last 2 parts. And all for no effect

You say that having unfinished entries picked in these rare circumstances is demoralising to other researchers whose entries aren't getting picked because they've been given some feedback to work through. Well point to one then.

Well, I had had two Entries in PR for about a fortnight at the time, neither of which had had ANY comments made on them. Then this one comes along with several 'Good Entry, but...' type comments made on it. The Researcher addresses none of them, and some Scout then picks it. There MUST've been other Entries more worthy at the time. My recollecton is that it hadn't really been in PR for that long either.

Annie, for one
Ideno with her Camper Van entry
I think Big Al has one, and certainly B'Elana with her tram entry.

Off the top of my head.

I appreciate what happens, what has to happen and what does happen.

After all, despite my lack of entries, I have been around for well over 5 years. Again, despite appearences to the contrary, i do think that PR is a vast and almost unquantifiable improvement over what went before.

However, we're not actually talking about the procedure - which I think most of us broadly agree is a Good Thing.

I think what we are really talking about here is how the PR process appears from the outside looking in.

Since this is not about personalities, I hope to stick to the "no names, no pack drill" formula. But, more than one person has said to me (off site) that their impression of PR is one of big names getting a quicker ride through, entries by scouts getting a quicker ride through, and new authors hardly being looked at because they are an unknown quantity (by implication: people have limited time and they look at an entry by an author whom they know will deliver the goods)

I, and I don't believe anyone else here either, has said that this is _actually_ what happens. Just that this is a feeling that more than one person has had.

Up to now we really haven't had anywhere to discuss this, although there have been several (independent) journal entries, and some off-topic discussion in actual PR threads. This fragments everything and for that reason I floated the idea of this forum.

The challenge now is to see exactly why people have this impression of PR and how we can combat it.

I hate to keep harping on about this but it's a big question.

oh, and sorry, forgot to mention.

With the "in and out in a jiffy" comment, I meant that if the Pirate thing had been sent to the FM (after 2 months in PR - which I still feel is too long - but that's personal thing, I'm impatient) someone would have been along to take it on and put it back in PR.

the point being: everyone who puts something into PR should have a fair crack at the whip.

On the one hand we are told by people who are eminently sensible and in the know (yes, Gnomon,I'm thinking specifically of you) that for an entry to be eligible for picking by a scout, it has to be factually correct (incorporating or rejecting PR suggestions as necessary), grammatically correct (because we have very few paid staff editory) typo and spelling checked (same reason).

So, as someone mentioned: a writer who carefully considers PR comments, fixes typos and grammar and regularly updates the thread is doing the right thing. But someone else, who posts once in a blue moon, gets the benefit of the doubt because we wouldn't want to lose the article?

What I would like to see is an even-handed application of the rules, unwritten or otherwise. I don't think I'm alone in that.

'...big names getting a quicker ride through, entries by scouts getting a quicker ride through, and new authors hardly being looked at because they are an unknown quantity (by implication: people have limited time and they look at an entry by an author whom they know will deliver the goods)'

I personally don't have the impression that this happens. I think I'm a reasonably well-known and respected author by now but, as I say, my Entries can still langush.

I just think that Entries such as that 'Piracy' one getting through like that just takes the . I don't think it happens that often and so, in this case, someone should admit that a mistake was made and either reiterate or, if necessary, make more robust, the existing Scouts guidelines.

Where's me golden fleece when I needs it

I have to say, while I was happy, I was equally embarrassed when one of my Entries that had only been in PR for little over a week was snapped up and is already pending

It's great, don't get me wrong, I thought it was fab! BUT...I did think; "That Entry by *any number of researchers* has been in PR MUCH longer and is just as good, if not better, why's mine been snaffled?"
(In fact there were Entries of my own I felt that way about! )

But at the end of the day, we must remember it is very much a priviledge to have work selected for the EG, it is a definitive work in some ways. You can't just bang any old thing out and expect it to be picked up straight away. (or can we, as it seems this is the bone of contention at the moment) I know we'll probably compare h2g2 to wikipedia and the like, but the Guide is something unique.

I think what peeves me the most is that while there are often suggestions made to possibly improve things, there does seem to be a pervading sense of 'it works at the moment, why do we need to change things?'

Well, because 'things' change. Evolution is ever so fast in the world of the Internet, and the 'dinosaur' will no doubt become extinct, while the clever little monkey will romp about until the sun goes supernova.

Phew! Done, I think...

*seethes with *

nah, only kidding! (well done, btw)

I still think that a good deal of the "problem" is one of perception. I really would like to see a good definitive answer from the h2g2 PTB about this.

Yes, it is a fantastic privilege to have a entry picked. Having said that, I think it's a fantastic privilege to have so many knowledgeable people donating their writing and knowledge for free. Give and take here.

Yeah, but sometimes with knowledge comes...is uppityness a word?

(and thank you )

But I guess with Entries being picked there is also the obvious factor. Does the person picking it LIKE it?

Here, a little reminiscing...

When I was a Scout I used to sort out my two picks like this;

Pick One; Something that is fairly recent, is well written, has had a good discussion about it.

Pick Two; Something that is right up the back of PR OR has been in PR for weeks on end, but is also well written and had good discussion.

So you got a newie and an oldie. Then two other factors came into it. I usually tried to ensure one of my picks was by someone I knew...a regular Researcher, and someone I didn't.

And the final factors? Could I read it, understand it, and did I enjoy it?

Then I gave up Scouting because I couldn't do the salute right

I think uppityness just became a word

Gawds, I'd never make a good scout.
Although I can tie knots and get a tent up in a jiffy.

I can get a tent up in a camping ground

Oh jeez, it must be late

What's the longest somethings been in PR my piece on Haslar was languishing for 12 months

at Matt James...

sorry, Reefie, no idea.

I'm off to PR now...

Just Matt will do. Or are you groaning at my name? Not the first time a lady has done that

GreydEsk said:
"No Sho, it wouldn't have been in and out in a jiffy. I described a fiddly 12 step process that, on current expectations, would last for at least 3 weeks for steps 1 to 10, and then maybe another couple of months for the last 2 parts. And all for no effect"

But what does it matter if the Pirate entry takes a month or two longer to get through the system? Whoever didn't pick it would have picked something else instead, and the whole system would keep ticking over. The only person who is directly affected by delays is the author whose entry is sitting for weeks in PR; if the author isn't round, it doesn't matter if it takes an abandoned entry a month or two longer to get picked, if (as I believe it should) it goes through the Flea Market first.

Again, look at the alternatives:
On the one hand, the Pirate entry is chosen now. The author is not around to be affected. Author X is disappointed because their entry stays another week or more in PR, though it still gets picked in the end.
On the other, Author X's entry is picked now, and X is delighted and other authors reassured that PR is working as it should. The Pirate entry goes through the Flea Market and still reaches the Front Page.

As far as I'm concerned there's still no contest. I know you say that this is very much an exceptional case, so the bit of extra delay in one entry, for the sake of PR morale, shouldn't matter.
Azara

"for the sake of PR morale, shouldn't matter."

Morale in PR??? the only morale I've experienced is rock bottom

Well, that shows that PR is very varied, doesn't it ? I've seen many PRs now, some good, some bad, some I contributed in, others I left without saying anything.