h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

How many regular commenters does the Writing Workshop actually have? I must admit I rarely go there myself.

This is turning into a bash-GB thread (thanks for the apology after, though it still hurts)

"I think it's absurd to think that a scout shouldn't pick the best entries first, leaving aside the easy, boring entries. " But that means that if there are a few dull entries in PR they will be overlooked time and time again as the new, interesting entries come in.

Why should something stay in PR when the site needs entries, just because it's not to everyone's taste? Especially if someone is waiting to see if their entry gets in before writing another one, or maybe someone wants to just concentrate on one entry in PR at a time, so that five weeks languishing could possibly have been holding up more entries. I know if I write I only have time for one at a time these days, so if one entry is sitting for weeks and weeks then the site is losing out, because there are more 'fun' entries out there.

If the constellations entries weren't being picked simply because there was a lot of them, that's really out of order. If they fit the guidelines and are ready, they should be picked. Apart from anything else, a reader may turn into a writer because they have a template to follow and so find that first entry that bit easier to manage.

Did I miss something?

Anyway, on topic.

I think one of our problems is stagnation. Regular hands are getting complacent (up until The Stretcher, I was turning out some turgid dross) and there's nothing to entice new writers.

All this "writing for the joy of it" doesn't wash with me. I love writing, but I come here for an audience. I want people to read my work, identify with it, pick holes in it, applaud it and damn it. What I'm faced with on h2g2 is a spelling check in PR, one day on the FP, and then what? Entries don't turn up on Google, entries don't even turn up on our internal search. Once we've written something, we may as well have put it in a drawer and forgotten about it.

Unless we can get a higher profile outside the community, there's no reason for anyone who wants to be read to write for us. And if we can't attract writers, we'll be having this debate another 12 months down the line too.

>>But that means that if there are a few dull entries in PR they will be overlooked time and time again as the new, interesting entries come in.<<

Well, yes. Exactly. In that time, they can be improved upon. If interesting Entries keep coming in, then the site obviously isn't desperate for new ones yet

I'm willing to comment on Entries that have been there a while - I usually do - but I'm not willing to pick them if they are not, in my opinion, ready to be picked.

"Well, yes. Exactly. In that time, they can be improved upon."

But who says they NEED improving? If they're decent, but slightly dull, why should they have to change to suit a few Scouts? I really can't believe you are still defending not picking entries that are ready for the Guide because there is a possibility they could be better.

If that's the case, I know of more than a few people on that Solo list, myself included, who'd still have their first entry sitting in PR, waiting for some up themselves Scout to decide it's not quite so dull anymore. On the other hand, if it's sitting with NO COMMENTS FOR FIVE WEEKS which was my point in the first place, how the hell is an entry that DOES need to improve going to get any better if no-one can be bothered to comment?

No wonder the EG is dying.

I'm not going to continue to respond to attacks like that.

If this is how you react to the mere suggestion that an entry could be boring, it just proves my point that there's no sense in commenting when I don't like the style because some authors (you? Not you? I don't know.) are interested in getting through PR with a minimum of effort rather than in actually improving anything.

Sorry, Mala, but I can't agree there. If someone submits to PR, it's because, in their eyes, it's ready. It's not going to get any better unless people actually comment.

If you were to make suggestions on how to make an entry less boring, then most authors would then be able to improve the Entry. Simply ignoring an article isn't going to make it less boring!

I've had entries languish without comment for much longer than five weeks. I've complained about it too; it can be discouraging. But when that's happened, I (eventually) sort of took it as a sign that if an entry is impressive, everything will go much more smoothly for all concerned, and I'll have something to feel proud about at the end of it.

"If they're decent, but slightly dull, why should they have to change to suit a few Scouts? I really can't believe you are still defending not picking entries that are ready for the Guide because there is a possibility they could be better."

The point is, I think, that to some scouts, if an entry's "dull", it's not "ready for the guide", especially if there are better entries to be had. Look at it from the other angle. Some writers put a lot of effort into their entries. One might pour their soul into a really great entry, that doesn't need much PR time. Shouldn't that person be rewarded with a swift trip to the FP? How would you feel if you poured your soul into an entry only to see a "dull" entry that met the technical requirements for admission picked before yours?

I didn't mean to GB-bash, honest. And I'm sorry that that hurt her, but I feel I have the right to express my opinions about certain kinds of entries. I'm trying to be careful to only speak about the quality of the entries, not the individual.

Whatever you thought of Mina's entry, 5 weeks is far, far too long to sit in PR without attention and assistance. We used to pack things off to the Flea Market sooner than that. Do we need a few more Scouts?

Having said that, if we as authors believe our entry is being ignored in PR then we should feel empowered to escalate it. Post something on the PR thread itself ("Are you ignoring me?"), and if that doesn't wake them, try the Scout volunteer page, or raise it with the Editors. I don't know how long you should leave it in each case, but 5 weeks is just not on, in my opinion.

(And if someone wants to make a point about the nature of PR by referencing my entries, feel free. There are some great examples of poor writing in my catalogue. Or if they just want to let me know I should pack it up and give up the whole game, my personal space is always there )

There are two issues here:

1. Entries not getting comments on - I don't think an entry can improve without getting comments.

2. Entries not getting picked because they are not of interest to a wide variety of people, or because they are 'just good enough' and they get overlooked by scouts in favour of other entries which are exceptional.

We can all comment - we don't need to be a scout to comment on entries. But lets face it giving feedback is far less interesting that recieving feedback.

If we're talking about "Training A Reliable Recall For Your Dog", I did pick that, and it came back as not accepted. After that, Mina went all and deleted it with no real explanation. You do have to keep bumping them once in a while to keep everyone's attention, tell us when you make changes and so on...

'You do have to keep bumping them once in a while to keep everyone's attention,'

Well, I thought that we're all informed that it's not the done thing to Entries. At least, that was what I was told when I first joined h2g2.

(If Miona's Entry was rejected by the Eds after it'd been accepted by Scouts, then this is the only example ofd this that I've come across since joining hootoo!)

Oh, and on the subject of so-called boring or formulaic entries, the Guide has plenty of room for all types of entry, and our readership is wide enough to enjoy all subjects, I'm sure. I've written plenty of maths ones which I know don't excite everybody, but I enjoy writing them and get the occasional new researcher who joins h2g2 to comment on them.

I personally loved the constellation entries, and I believe h2g2 is lucky to have a great resource. We all had our opinions on how they should have been written - I preferred the mythology aspects, whereas others preferred the science, others still the popular culture. In the end we got entries which are comprehensive and well rounded, and the standard format means we can easily pick and choose the bits we like to read. GB and the others have created something readable out of what in its simplest sense are 88 solid angles of sky. It was a great achivement.

I have just had a thought -

Should we as scouts/pr particpants (though I'm not active at the moment) have some minimum standards we aim for when it comes to commenting.

The idea of 'writing coaches' as a volenteer grup has been mooted for a while - and has sort of died. Could we have a group of PR people who try to

1. Comment on every entry within 48 hours for exisiting authours, within 24 hours for newbies.

2. Visit the personal space of a newbie who submits an entry to offer help/advice/encouragement.

These people don't *have* to be scouts - they can just be anyone.

Well, not posting a smiley, maybe, but a reply to the last poster might be nice

I'd like a way to sort PR by last update as well as last comment and date submitted. Then we could see Entries that are being worked on despite lack of comments.

It strikes me that that would be a Scout-Ace hybrid group - would it have a defined purpose aside from the work of those two groups?

There's a danger in making too many layers of hootoo bureaucracy. I suspect that in a lot of the volunteer groups there's an overlapping membership. I also suspect that if there was a new group like the one you mention it would be more of the same people wearing different hats. My criticism of that isn't with the volunteers in any of the groups - it's that it makes more work for everyone involved if there's a new group doing much the same thing as the current ones do.

Probably not - but could part of the Scouts and the ACEs duties include the above?

Sorry, ignore my point about the ACEs, I misread what you said.

As for "Comment on every entry within 48 hours for exisiting authours, within 24 hours for newbies"

Yes and no. I don't think it's good to encourage commenting for commenting's sake, necessarily. When you get people commenting out of a sense of duty rather than having a concrete suggestion for improving the content of the Entry, that's when you get a lot of the heavy emphasis on spelling and punctuation that people were complaining about earlier.