h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"And it's only because of the English oppression of the Welsh language, and the English wish for non-English persons to be oppressed, that a lot more people do not speak welsh as their first language!"

Wrong. The ludicrous generalisation in that last sentence hints at the real situation. I would suggest that the unnecessary coupling of the language issue to nationalistic politics in Wales has alienated many people who are otherwise well disposed towards the preservation of linguistic diversity.

I would further suggest that the misguided educational policy of ramming Welsh down the often unwilling throats of all Welsh schoolchildren will in the long term do more harm than good to the Welsh language, just as it is already doing harm in the short term to the learning of other European languages in Wales and therefore to the job prospects of Welsh children who seek employment in the wider world beyond Wales.

...and by the way: shouldn't that be "A Crash Course IN Welsh"?

I have to say that I don't think our educational policy is misguided. Learning a second language from an early age is beneficial to all kinds of developmental areas, never mind what language it is. And at secondary school it's hardly heavy - three hours a week compared to eight or so of English or Maths. Then from the age of fourteen, the compulsory time for studying Welsh is reduced to one hour a week (although there is an option to make this two, or take GCSE and make it 8), and in my experience there is no homework set in this lesson which might hinder one's GCSE studies. And then once you're sixteen you never have to do it again anyway if you don't want to.
Besides, the Welsh language is part of our history and culture, and if it isn't taught in schools then it will be all but lost from the mainstream in Wales.

Numbers of Welsh pupils learning modern European languages are declining so rapidly that even the Assembly has finally woken up to the dangers of the situation. What does it do for their job prospects in an increasingly globalised world if they speak only English and school Welsh? How limiting is that?

It is politically unacceptable to blame this freefall in modern language learning on compulsory Welsh, but that is the culprit. Ask any secondary school pupil. They will tell you that they are already forced to learn two languages and a third is just one too many. I have heard this over and over.

Or do you have an alternative explanation? Modern languages are flourishing in England (and everywhere else in Europe) but declining in Wales. Why?

I don't think it has to be the culprit. Take the Republic Of Ireland as an example - there, it is compulsory to learn Irish until you leave school, and if you do not pass the subject at the eqivalent of A-Level then you cannot enter university. However if you do not also pass the A-Level in another European language, you still cannot go to university. And this works - the majority of Irish teenagers are trillingual and in my experience, very few complain. A system like that in Wales, in my opinion, would not hurt a bit. The British educational system as a whole is behind those of the Continent, where requirements similar to those in Ireland are made of students.
And isn't English supposed to be the global language anyway? I don't agree with the principle, but the fact remains that there are more learners of English in China than native speakers in America, for example.

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I think you would have enormous difficulty selling the idea of compulsory Welsh AND a compulsory European language to A-level as a University entrance requirement. A-levels (sorry about this piece of political incorrectness, but it's true) are already getting easier to accommodate the requirement for greater breadth in education. Two compulsory languages in addition to whatever people actually WANTED to study would be the death blow to their credibility.

Welsh Universities would be unlikely to welcome this, either - many people who were thinking of University would look at the extra work involved in going to a Welsh University and simply decide to go to an English one instead.

I have taught in secondary schools in Germany, usually held up as the model to follow. Universities there make high entry demands of their students, but are not so prescriptive as you suggest as far as subjects are concerned, and therefore neither are schools. You only have to talk to an average Gymnasium student and an average British sixth former to know who has had the better education. And you, by the way, are not average - do not use yourself as a standard of comparison.

Certainly English is a global language. So what? The German trade minister famously remarked that he was happy to SELL to Britain in English, but if British companies expected to sell their products in Germany they had better do so in German. I once did a day's interpreting for a German manufacturer who had a group of executives from a famous British high-street store touring his factory. Not one of them spoke German, they had made no arrangements AT ALL for understanding their host, but had left it all up to him to arrange. Pathetic, but unfortunately symptomatic.

Finally, if compulsory Welsh is not responsible for the headlong decline in European language learning in Wales, do you have an alternative culprit to suggest?

Welsh must be taught, but take away the compulsion - if it is as useful and beautiful and culturally essential as its proponents suggest, why would it not flourish anyway?

I apologise UNRESERVEDLY for the repetitions - the damn thing just WOULD NOT post, so I clicked the button too often and it buffered them all - hangs head in shame.

Hi.


I agree, compulsory Welsh was torture for me, I would never have gone to university if I had to learn more of it - a slow hanging over a bonfire with an adder in my underpants would be less painful to me.

I think 2 language 'A' levels would be difficult - If someone wished to take, for example, three core sciences - chem/phys/maths, they may not be able to cope with an extra two 'A' levels, especially if they are not naturally inclined to languages.

Also the pronunciation guide in the crash course ommitted to mention that the 'U' is often pronounced as an 'I' and that Welsh is not very commonly spoken in South Wales to any great extent.

hwyl fawr
(bye)

P.

Ah well, I'm evidently biased by my own inclination to try and learn any language that comes my way. I can see I'm not going to win this one.

You've made a few good points though. Maybe the fact is that the education system failed to instil a love of language in me, instead, it gave me an intense dislike of them. Maybe this is an indictment of the current teaching methods, or our society's attitude. Either way, I agree that the British system is in dire need of reforms.

As for your inclination, I hope it makes you rich, happy or both!

P.

Good point.
And thanks!

I would like to know what the writer meant by preservation, as it seems to me to be an excuse for not learning or acquiring the language. It seems strange to me that all Welsh speakers are at the very least bilingual while non Welsh speakers of Welsh in Wales are monoglots. Why is it that having the ability to speak Welsh seems to benefit bilingualism facility of the individual. I do the arguments about the teaching of Welsh apply to the language of preference of the individulal.

Seaghan

Speaking Welsh doesn't improve your ability to become billingual as such. The sad fact is that you need to speak English to live in Wales, you cannot get by speaking Welsh alone.

Sorry to but in on this one at a late stage, but I felt it necessary.

As a first language Welsh speaker I find it quite patronising to be told that the teaching of Welsh shouldn't be compulsory in Wales.

Why ever not? To take the point to an extremem, would you suggest to a Frenchman that he shouldn't bother with French as he can quite easily get by in the world of commerce by learning English?

The fact is that more and more people are learning Welsh - the latest census figures show that the number of adults returning to school to learn Welsh is higher than ever.

You ask for a theory which disproves yours for the decline of foreign language successes in Welsh schools ... well where is the evidence that it is the teaching of Welsh which is responsible?

English results are at an all-time low in Scotland - have you a theory for that too, or is it just easy to bash the Welsh language?