h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I've been outside the Bronte Museum in Haworth on many occasions, but never actually been inside - 'cos it has always been closed. Possibly because every time I've been to Haworth has been the week after Christmas having ridden on the Worth Valley Railway's Mince Pie Special. Good to see what the interior looks like.


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I definitely recommend visiting it when it is open if you can.

In particular I found it very atmospheric seeing the room where Charlotte, Emily and Anne spent most of their time...

This is a lovely photo, MVP - I like how the room is bright, but the light is still quite soft.

This is fascinating, mvp! It is a very clear photo. The light is lovely, all pastel and soft and natural.

Imagine having to wear a dress like that! I get all breathless and faint and funny when I think about having to pull my waist in like that, with a corset? and look all curvy like that.

How I appreciate my stretchy jeans and stripy socks right now.

What's in the box on the table?

Your photo is like your stories, there are questions.

Who is the chap with the beard?

Gloves on blue chair.

(Attempts to breathe because of waist size of dress.)

Did women at that time question what they had to wear, or did they just get on with it because they knew no different?

If I'd lived at that time I'd have to have worn jodhpurs, if I was allowed, because I'm a tomboy type, or else dress as a man and try to escape to some desert, with a camel train.

See what kind of thoughts your photo provokes?

Sorry, jodhpurs weren't available for women to wear until the 1920s and women were expected to ride side-saddle, but bloomers were a step in that direction. It was the bicycle that revolutionised women's fashions and allowed for the use of wearing bloomers, as you can't pedal a bicycle riding side saddle – although there was a strong conservative element that insisted that women should sit upright and wear corsets so that they didn't lean forward on the bicycle, and some women's pedals were cages designed to prevent men from glimpsing a woman's ankles
Bicycles also allowed those not wealthy enough to own their own horse or buy train/carriage tickets each day unbridled access to anywhere they wanted to go. Universal suffrage owes a lot to the humble bicycle.

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Yikes, now I'm breathless. Again. This is seriously informative, BB, thank you so much.

I will never ever complain about my bike again, not even in the rain. Thank you for this knowledge.

You know, even though I'm in my 60s, and walk proudly as my own kind of woman, it's still really difficult for me to physically contain the cruelty of aspects of womens' history.

And aspects of mens' history also, because men who were seen as different were persecuted, still are, my husband has nightmares because he's different.

Thinking about corsets still makes my abdomen hurt.

When I learned about footbinding I couldn't walk properly for a while, couldn't get my boots on.

And lets face it, it ain't over yet, but best not to go there right now.



So, in the time of the Brontes, what did happen to women like me who were born naturally androgynous, in appearance and psychology?

And to those born biologically/emotionally transgender.

I guess sexuality and deviant thoughts could be concealed, but what about appearance?

Did the men rebel against what they had to wear? What would have happened to androgynous/transgender guys?

I think the answers might be dark. I'm thinking asylums,imprisonment, or worse.



Even in the so called liberated 70s I had a rough time in my young adult life, just because I had naturally straight hips, and a third gender look, before third gender was even spoken about.

At least I could wear hipster flares though. And cheesecloth shirts with no collar.

My mother, who in my childhood affectionately called me her third son, was so trapped, having to dress a certain way, having to have her hair permed, having to wear stockings, and she later got really jealous of me.

All she wanted to do was crop her hair, put on a pinstripe trouser suit and run run run. I wish she had. I'd have protected her. I often think about it, and cry. She was so beautiful.



I guess hurting doesn't do any good, although empathy is fine if one can stand it.

However, celebration is good though, also. Celebrate how far we have come, in history.

I shall think about bloomers, which, for their time were perhaps a miracle.



See what your photo started, mvp? . You always do this, with your stories, open up all the questions.

'So, in the time of the Brontes, what did happen to women like me who were born naturally androgynous, in appearance and psychology?'

Now that's a question – all the university around the can spend all their lifetimes studying it and never doing more than scratching the surface! I'm not going to pretend that I can give a real answer, but will reply as best I can.

When the Brontes were alive (1816-1855) life was cheap. Very cheap. For everyone. Chimney sweep cheap. 'Mudlark' – wading through mud all day in the hope of finding coins and other scraps of value – was an occupation. The biggest problem of course is that of what records we have. The poorest in society are least likely to have been educated well enough to write about their daily experiences, so we don't have as many records, diaries, letters etc of the very poorest women from their point of view, rather than stats in the census. But society was financially based on the family unit, so if you weren't in a family with a working husband and children – or a group of family/friends who would help support you - then you'd be more likely to end up in the workhouse, same as the ill and the elderly. If you were poor and in a workhouse or working in a factory from the age of five with everyone around you dropping of cholera, it's hard to know how much you're being persecuted when life is a daily struggle to survive anyway.

Wealthier women we have far more evidence about, and if you were wealthy and had supporting family and friends, you could enjoy a good degree of freedom. Near the Brontes in Halifax lived Anne Lister (1791-1840) who was a wealthy woman called 'the first modern lesbian' and was famed for her diaries of her lesbian relationships. She was also a pioneer mountain climber. In that time you also had the 'Ladies of Llangollen' who lived openly lesbian lives together 1780-1829 and received a royal pension, meeting poets, writers and even the Duke of Wellington. They were considered respectable, but 'respectable' in this context means wealthy.
On the other hand, there are shocking examples of the way wealthy women were treated that take place just before the Brontes' lifetime, in which women were treated purely as property. Seymour Fleming (1758-1818) and Mary Eleanor Bowes, Countess of Strathmore and Kinghorne (1749-1800) spring to mind.

But what would the life of, say, a mineworker's daughter who was born naturally androgynous would have been like? I can't answer that, but I know it isn't a life I would choose.

On the UK's Equal Pay Day last week (it is held on a different day in each country depending on how equal that country it is – the later in the year, the greater the equality) the BBC have a link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41805053 showing whether or not there is pay equality in local areas. (On the Isle of Wight, women earn on average 58p per hour more than men.)

As for women in bloomers – the danger was that a woman on a bicycle might lean forward, and then it was worried that gravity might emphasise areas propriety considered inappropriate, such as the bosom and bottom. Bloomers and frills would disguise the bottom, but corsets were considered vital. And then the s said that women were too delicate to ride a bicycle – surprisingly I don't know of any Victorian doctors who volunteered to try riding a heavy bone-shaker uphill in a corset to see how they got on in comparison…

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The 18th and 19th centuries were, however, better for women who lived on frontiers in the US. A lot of them were very independent, and dressed as they liked, although this lady obviously wore her best clothes for her photo op.

http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.gen.040

According to another article, 2400 single women - many of them single mothers - homesteaded in Minnesota between 1863 and 1889. The Homestead Act was gender-neutral.

One of the aspects of my visit to Haworth which struck me most was going round the cemetery. So many of the gravestones commemorated children - between a few months and twelve . I agree with Bluebottle that life was so hard for the poorer people that they didn't have time or inclination to think about rights.
Ironically, it could have been the disaster of the First World War that made the difference to the status of women. So many men were fighting that women got called on to work in a variety of trades and professions.

There are Edited Guide articles on subjects related to these questions.
SashaQ has written two articles on women who lived as men: one about Albert Cashier A87898667, and another about Dr James Barry A87850786.
And there's my article 'Bloomers - How women sought freedom and found knickers' A87620529

Very thought-provoking thread indeed.

Another of my Entries is A87820725 Count Sandor Vay, and it seems from what was documented that he was quite androgynous. My Dandies Entry A87868192 might also be relevant here...

This is all really important information! Thanks, ye wise ones. I have much follow up reading, and consideration. What wonderful writers and thoughtful people there are here on h2g2.

Yes, I guess if one is struggling to survive at all, plus burying infants, then, yes, the question of gender identity isn't really a top priority.

All a bit grim really.

Yes, I've heard that about the wars, the way they affected womens' lives. My mother said WW2 was a social shake up, a chance for her to get out there and do work she wouldn't otherwise have been able to do, plus meet people she wouldn't otherwise have met. OK, so you may not be alive tomorrow, but ..

I'm for the US frontiers myself though. How fascinating, The Homestead Act. I'm into this. Gives me a glimmer of hope.

I have lots to think about, and lots of articles to read, and names to check. Thanks!

I finally saw this dress in action - and the Bronte Museum's cameo.

'To Walk Invisible' (BBC) was offered on Amazon Prime, so we watched it. Amazing two-part series. It really gave you an appreciation for Yorkshire and the Brontes. Kick-ass writers.

Charlotte was a real hero - and she rocked that dress.

Interesting description of the Brontes. Kick-ass writers.

Love it.