h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: University Project: Plato - Philosopher - A87810465
Author: SashaQ - "He changed into all manner of colours with delight" - U9936370

Here's SashaQ's University project on the philosopher Plato. Some of the entries were co-written by Bearevan.

The entries are as follows:

Plato - Philosopher:
- A87808008 Introduction
- A87810447 On Socrates
- A87809575 On Love
- A87809584 On Atlantis
- A87810456 On Politics

Please review these entries and post your comments here. Include the name of the entry you are reviewing so that we know which one you are talking about.

Concentrate on the content: do you think the entries are too short, too long, too technical? Are they easy to read and grab your attention? If you like them, let us know. If you don't like them, please tell us why.

The entries have already been sub-edited, so there shouldn't be too many grammar, punctuation or spelling problems; if you do find any, please point them out here.

Note that the lists at the top of each entry include a link to the existing Edited Entry for The Republic - this is not part of the project and does not need to be reviewed.

Thank you so much for taking this project under your wing. I can see this as some late night reading, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm keeping my eye on this worthwhile project.

I hope you get some keen reviewers too!

Lanzababy

I think this is really an intersting series of Entries. I read them yesterday already but will have to read them again, I think.

So far I only have questions about the part about Socrates:

In the Entry about Socrates there is written:
'Due to his innate ability as a public speaker, the jury was only in favour of his death by an insignificant minority. But when Socrates suggested that he be let off with a small fine instead of a serious sentence, because of his importance to Athens and Greece as a nation, the jury was infuriated and subsequently the vote changed.'

This confuses me because in this Project it says 'The vote takes place and a small majority of jurors choose to convict Socrates on the charges.'
There is also no mention of infuriating the jurors but it says 'Unmoved by his talk, the jury vote again and choose the death penalty.'
This seems to be a contradiction, so which Entry is right?

I also don't understand why Socrates gets a death penalt y and then kills himself. Was that a usual thing?

( the Entry about Socrates is A279632 )

The Entry about the Republic is really good and easy to understand. I think it explains everything very well, although I can't comment on its correctness.

On Love:

In the first paragraph it is said that Hippothales comes to Socrates for advice, but a sentence later Socrates is talking to Lysis and not Hippothales. Is there a mistake?
' together they deduce that he is not conceited, which is good.'
He is not conceited about what? Generally? About Hippotales?

'Socrates first draws one conclusion, then changes his line of thought and draws another, conflicting, conclusion. In the end, Lysis and Menexenus have to go home and no definitive conclusion is reached about the true nature of friendship.'
I'd like to know more about the conclusions actually are instead of just knowing that there are any.

The Symposium:

'Apollodorus mentions that he has already told the tale two days earlier to his acquaintance Glaucon.'
Is that relevant? I would make this whole paragraph shorter, just saying that Apollodorus tells a story he heard from Aristodemus.

'Heavenly love is directed towards young men who are old enough to demonstrate intelligence rather than good looks.'
Only young men? So, when you are an older man you can't get heavenly love?

'Aristophanes, the famous comedy playwright, has the hiccups, so Eryximachus is the next to speak' (+footnote)
Is that relevant? You do not tell before that there is a strict order to who talks when and that this order has to be broken somehow. Is it not enough to just say who speaks?

'Aristophanes jokes that his hiccups were cured by Eryximachus' suggestion of sneezing, but he doesn't know what kind of love wanted that sensation.'


I think I don't really understand the last paragraph about Socrates' speech where he talks about love and how it is extended.

On Atlantis:

'Critias tells Socrates a tale which was passed down to him through his grandfather and the Athenian political leader Solon.'
Are the grandfather and the political leader one person or two?

'He fathered five sets of twins with Cleito and they and their children became the inhabitants of Atlantis - the island and the Atlantic Ocean were named after Atlas, their first-born child.'
Who is 'they' and 'their'? Is it Poseidon and Cleito or their children?

On Politics:

'Alcibiades, the infamous Athenian politician (beloved of Socrates) who was exiled and also served in the governments..'
You make me curious here about why he was infamous.

What is a Sophist?
I know you say that in the end no conclusion is found to this question, but I don't even have a vague idea.

'The main speaker, however, is an 'Eleatic Stranger', who was a pupil of Parmenides...'
This tells me nothing I'm afraid. I'm not at all any wiser because I know he was a pupil of Parmenides. Was he also a philosopher? A politician? A poet? Ok, the footnote tells me, but still...
Also the footnote is connected to the word 'Eleatic' but does not explain what eleatic is. I've never heard this word.

Thanks for all these comments, Tav. I think it is best that SashaQ attempts to answer them.

what Lanza said

GB

Thanks for reading my Project Tav - good work

On Socrates A87810447

I read a 2010 translation of Plato's Apology, and as I read it, there were two votes - one to convict him, and one to decide the penalty. After the first vote, Socrates mentions that it was a small majority that voted to convict him, but after the second vote, he did not mention the numbers on each side, or anything about a reaction to his proposal of a fine instead of the death penalty.

"I also don't understand why Socrates gets a death penalt y and then kills himself. Was that a usual thing?"

Yes - I did a quick search online, and it looks like the options for the death penalty in Athens were either forced suicide, where he was given poison and took it himself, or he would be beaten to death

then maybe the old Entry should be corrected?

I think you should put that thing about the death penalty into a footnote.

On Love A87809575

I suggest rewriting the first paragraph of the Lysis section as follows:

"He has tried wooing Lysis with poetry and praises, and now he asks Socrates for advice. Socrates meets Lysis, and instead of complimenting him, Socrates questions him about what he knows and does not know. Together they deduce that Lysis does not have an inflated view of his own beauty or talents (even though Hippothales praised him) which is good."

I think the middle sentence of the second paragraph in the Lysis section would be better as:

"Socrates tries various arguments, thinking about lovers and their beloveds, good and evil, like-mindedness and opposites attract, but he is dissatisfied with all the results."

In the first sentence of The Symposium section:

"This book is considered to be one of the best constructed of Plato's works in relation to its development of the single topic under discussion. It also sets the scene well, linking the philosophical arguments together in an amusing narrative."

With regard to Aristophanes' hiccups, we could say in the first subsection, "Phaedrus takes his turn first as he is sitting on the left". Then "Aristophanes, the famous comedy playwright, is sitting to the right of Pausanius, but he has the hiccups"

In Socrates Speaks:

"Next the love is extended to beauty in people's souls, and enables the lover to bring forth creativity in young people who may or may not be physically attractive. As a result the love is generalised to creativity itself, including activities such as science."


"Heavenly love is directed towards young men who are old enough to demonstrate intelligence rather than good looks.'
Only young men? So, when you are an older man you can't get heavenly love?"

It maybe needs to include some mention in the introductory paragraph about how "the type of love in Athens that Plato mostly considers is that of older men (lovers) who are attracted to young men (beloveds)."

I hope that helps

On Atlantis

"First, though, Critias tells Socrates a tale which was passed down to him by his grandfather, who heard it from the Athenian political leader Solon."

'He fathered five sets of twins with Cleito and named the island (and the Atlantic Ocean) after his first-born child, Atlas. The twins and their children became the inhabitants of Atlantis.

Thank you, I think this makes it all clear.

On Politics A87810456

Please change the first paragraph to:

"Many of the Greek philosopher Plato's works address the subject of politics and investigate ideal models of government. Real people from Greek history often appear in his dialogues as well, such as Critias, a politician and author; Aristophanes, a comedy playwright; and Alcibiades, the infamous Athenian politician (beloved of Socrates) who also served in the governments of Athens' enemies Sparta and Persia in his desire for glory."

The first paragraph of the Ideal Government section:

"The Sophist is a discussion of a new style of teaching that was becoming popular in Athens. Socrates is present in the dialogue, plus Parmenides (a well known philosopher) and Theatetus (a young man), who had both had discussions with Socrates on previous occasions. The main speaker, however, is an 'EleaticThe Eleatics were members of a school of philosophy founded by Parmenides in Elea, Southern Italy. The most famous Eleatic was Zeno. Stranger', who was a pupil of Parmenides and conducts a question and answer session with Theatetus. They deduce that sophists are argumentative salesmen who ask for payment in return for describing things which they do not really have knowledge of."

In the next paragraph:

"The Stranger uses the methods of The Sophist and, through classification of things, sets out how to identify statesmen - it is deduced that statesmen are shepherds, not much different from the people they rule over, but with the ability to see what should be done to benefit the state."

I hope that helps

I'll be pretty busy tomorrow, but I'll try and get this sorted on Friday.

Sorry. I'm still busy. Concert last night, another on Wednesday with lots of rehearsals. Also I have to clear out two rooms before the builder arrives on Tuesday. But I'll gey to this.

Sasha, in Posting 12, you suggest the following sentence, but I'm not happy with it. It doesn't seem to quite make sense:

"Socrates tries various arguments, thinking about lovers and their beloveds, good and evil, like-mindedness and opposites attract, but he is dissatisfied with all the results."

In Posting 12, where you say:

"It maybe needs to include some mention in the introductory paragraph about how "the type of love in Athens that Plato mostly considers is that of older men (lovers) who are attracted to young men (beloveds)."

do you mean the introductory paragraph of the entry, or the introductory paragraph of the section "Socrates Speaks"?

Keeping track of what I've done:

I've made all the changes suggested in posting 12, except for the two issues I raised in postings 18 and 19.

I've done all the changes suggested in postings 13 and 15.

Need to add the footnote suggested by Tav about the death penalty in Athens.