h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oh...and PsychoC...nice use of the word 'irk'.

Hi Eddie

What moi? Take offence? Heaven forfend!

I would be interested to understand what 'ritualistic malarkey' you think I get up to.... and before you start I am not one of bedsheets brigade from Stonehenge. It's always nice to know what assumptions people are making about me before engaging my 'Offended Mode'.

In my case it would be difficult to separate my "sound, practical activities" from my "ritualistic malarkey" as each informs and overlaps considerably with the other. This is the point at present trying to be made in this debate is it not?

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

>You must admit that there could be worse things they could assume about you?<

Not many, and not much worse, as far as I'm concerned. It is irksome, more so than insulting or anything like that, but it's still pretty undesirable, for me anyway.

>In my case it would be difficult to separate my "sound, practical activities" from my "ritualistic malarkey" as each informs and overlaps considerably with the other. This is the point at present trying to be made in this debate is it not?<

But why must it automatically be assumed that one cannot have "sound, practical activities" without "ritualistic malarkey" as a prerequisite?

*Is* this assumed? Did someone say so, and I missed it?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

OK. I'll bite.

Celebrating Beltane is especially good for the environment because...?

(Note: I've nothing against anyone celebrating Beltane, Eid, Hannukah, Christmas or Beethoven's birthday.)

Pattern-Chaser, I read the Hattersly article and *he* said it: "The correlation is so clear that it is impossible to doubt that faith and charity go hand in hand."

This statement insinuates that the "sound practical" works are a direct result of the ritualistic malarkey.

Does a sense of duty to one's faith- i.e., "my god told me to do it and if I don't he'll smite me", or "I'll earn cosmic brownie points if I do"- make charitable works more admirable than ones done exclusive of faith and simply because one wishes to help their fellow man? I don't find all christian charities to be terribly altruistic, when you get down to their real "mission".

Hmm. I slightly disagree. A Christian may do two things, believing both to be altruistic.
a) Give food, medicine, shelter, hugs.
b) Perform various rituals concerned with saving souls.

a) I can agree with. b) I can't. But the value of a) need not necessarily be knocked...provided b) doesn't intrude upon the recipient.

Similarly, a Druid may do a) various good environmental acts and b) leafy glade malarkey. Giving them their due, unlike the bible-bashers, they don't impose their harmless hobby on others.

Oh, sorry. Still, although Hattersley thinks that faith gives rise to charity, we can also read (between the lines!) that 'faith is not the *only* thing that leads to charity', which is your point, yes?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

True, christians might feel that trying to "save souls" is altruistic... but I don't know as that it is true. Not saying it isn't, just that it doesn't seem that way *to me*. I would think it more important to save the body first, and then minister to the "soul" than the other way around. But I think we've been over that before.

Having been at the receiving end of numerous conversion attempts, I can attest to the fact that they can be pretty brutal.

>Similarly, a Druid may do a) various good environmental acts and b) leafy glade malarkey. Giving them their due, unlike the bible-bashers, they don't impose their harmless hobby on others.<

I will agree with you 100% that I've never had a Druid or any other kind of pagan or neo-pagan try to impose their beliefs on me, and I appreciate that difference.

>Oh, sorry. Still, although Hattersley thinks that faith gives rise to charity, we can also read (between the lines!) that 'faith is not the *only* thing that leads to charity', which is your point, yes?<

Right on! That's exactly my point.

So, what else besides faith breeds charity, then? I'm giving some thought to the source of my own altruistic feelings.

Empathy.

<>

Morality? Thinking something is right for its own sake, rather than because someone told you so?

Using the Salvation Army as a specific example, I can agree that the "soldier in the field" might see the soul-saving part of his job as altruistic. But the higher you go in the chain of command, the more suspect that altruism becomes. From their "Articles of War" document which every member signs:

"I will be actively involved, as I am able, in the life and work, worship, and witness of the corps, giving as large a portion of my income as possible to support its ministries and the worldwide work of the Army."

Note the language on that income bit. Salvation is a pyramid scheme, needing a constant flow of new members to keep it going. And we all know that in pyramid schemes, the money flows to the top.

They also say that their disaster relief is funded entirely through donations... in other words, they financially isolate their ministries and evangelistic projects in order to protect them from potential shortfalls during a disaster. Thus, at a minimum, they'll break even during a disaster. I wonder if they don't actually turn a huge profit in a situation like this one. Who is doing the accounting?

A little unfair. I presume they're registered as a charity. In the UK, this means that their accounts will be open for public scrutiny.

Perhaps we're trying too hard to bash them here. The point is that it's not *only* the faifthful who are altruistic. A secondary point is that with faith, you get other baggage along with any altruism.

I take it there's such a thing as Good baggage?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"The correlation is so clear that it is impossible to doubt that faith and charity go hand in hand."

Confusing correlation with causation.

I could as easily say "The correlation is so clear that it is impossible to doubt that faith and terrorism go hand in hand."

I think natural empathy is a better candidate for motivating charitable impulses. I also think empathy is not restricted to humans.

Hi Eddie

Ok I'm bitten.

"Celebrating Beltane is especially good for the environment because...?"

Beltaine is one of the eight festivals that many druids celebrate. Each marks a point in the sacred year and has its own special meaning to us.

Our celebrations can be said to be 'good for the environment because' it is an example of a small community reaffirming their connection to the land. Most druids are solitary for much of the year and it is at the festivals we come together to celebrate. We also to share what we have learnt and done in the months since last we met. For many this reivigorates them for the fights to come and others find themselves inspired to get involved in the many environmental and social projects druids contribute to.

I do not believe, nor have I ever stated, that you have to have a spiritual belief to be good, or to care for the planet. What I am trying to explain that often having such a belief, as in the example of druidry, can be an inspiration to carry through 'good' works.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

Why not just call it a 'knees up' and stop imagining there's anything mystical about it?

So what you actually said, given your use of the word "imagining" is "Why not just call it a 'knees up' as there's nothing mystical about it?" Honesty is always the best policy, yes?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Well, a little tad pedantic (as ever ). To clarify, then:

This I can buy: Druids are decent folk who do good things...and by the by indulge in a harmless, if amusing, hobby which involves dressing in cloaks and prancing in woods.

This I can't: Druids conduct rituals concerned with 'working with the spiritual forces of the earth' and thereby do good things.