h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi

actually, I'm pretty desperate for some!

any offers?

Spiff

I think that you have missed something here, without which the entire article doesn't entirely make sense.

Received pronunciation has very little to do with bbc english, and in most cases, the people who confuse the two don't know what they are talking about.

Received pronunciation is a way of pronouncing various phonemes so that they will be understandable by anyone anywhere who understands english. As far as I am aware, it does not include dialect, although there is usually an awareness that others speaking a different dialect might hear what you are saying as a different, and often rude, word. it also doesn't include vocabulary, although most english teaching uses a common base vocabulary.

BBC english (as I understand it) is a special dialect which uses a particular accent (english upper class 1950's) with a vocabulary and various conventions to go with it. This used to be the only accent and dialect allowed on the bbc, but over the years, this has been relaxed to the point where you can find people presenting programs with a strong birmingham accent and dialect, with the only constraint being on swear words, and understandability.

As you can see, from this perspective, a lot of the article doesn't entirely make sense, as it seems to be writen from the perspective that rp and bbc are the same.

hi Xyroth

Thanks for taking the time to comment, but did you also take the time to read the article? You seem to think that this piece simply states that RP = BBC English. Is this really what you think?

>>> "Received pronunciation has very little to do with bbc english, and in most cases, the people who confuse the two don't know what they are talking about."

I never intended to say that RP and BBC English are the same thing. 'BBC English' is not a term used in linguistics. It is simply a widely recognised way to describe the exaggeratedly clear and, as you say, rather 'upper-class' type accent favoured by BBC newsreaders, continuity announcers and broadcasters generally, especially in the 1930's - 50's. Since those broadcasters were trying to emulate a standard pronunciation they all sound the same, and the standard that they were trying to emulate was close to what is now defined as RP. For this reason I consider it a useful 'auditory' illustration of how RP sounds.

Did you read the 'The times they are achangin' section,

- "Interestingly, in recent times this prestige associated with RP has fallen away. Today the 'marked RP' spoken by, for instance, many members of the royal family is considered over-the-top. A strong 'posh' accent will be described as 'plummy' and attract ridicule."

In this article I have assumed that most people will not be familiar with the term RP, so I have used this paragraph to try to evoke what is in fact a very familiar and conventional pronunciation of British English, despite being spoken by so few British people today. I thought the 3 examples that I gave would provid at least an idea of what RP sounded like. Do you have a better but equally evocative way?

Are you sure *you* know exactly what RP is, Xyroth?

I'm afraid I don't entirely agree with the definition that you give, although I do accept that mine needs further clarification.

- <>

Did you read my suggested definition?

- "RP can be described as a standard pronunciation of British English, established as the accent that carries the most prestige and is most widely understood within the British national community."

Do you disagree with my definition? I will now try to find out to what extent RP is 'international', for a start. Perhaps further clarification of the prestige aspect and its diminishing relevance would be useful. Also the fact that it is a term rarely mentioned outside the study of linguistics (as compared to language learning). What do you think?

<>

Where have I suggested RP includes dialect? I specifically state on more than one occasion that it does NOT refer to standard vocabulary or grammar. (Although there are such things, and they can perhaps be seen as coming under the general heading of Standard British English). If you are refering to the 'You say potato' section then you might note that it is a comparison of RP with 'non-standard' ie 'non-RP' accents in the British Isles and elsewhere. I hope to clarify what RP is by showing also what it is not.

Please compare my paragraph:

- "Another poignant example is that mentioned earlier - the BBC itself! RP used to be so omnipresent on the BBC (especially in pre-TV days) that BBC English actually became an accepted synonym for RP. Perhaps the term no longer conjures up the same mental 'sound-image' as it used to so universally. "And now, here is the news at one o'clock." If not, it is probably because very few of the voices that come out of our TVs are speaking RP. The last bastion is perhaps the News, which still requires maximum clarity and the widest possible range of comprehension."

with your -

"BBC english (as I understand it) is a special dialect which uses a particular accent (english upper class 1950's) with a vocabulary and various conventions to go with it. This used to be the only accent and dialect allowed on the bbc, but over the years, this has been relaxed to the point where you can find people presenting programs with a strong birmingham accent and dialect, with the only constraint being on swear words, and understandability."

Did you read my article carefully before making these comments?

Incidentally, some sensitive souls might feel targetted by comments like: "Received pronunciation has very little to do with bbc english, and in most cases, the people who confuse the two don't know what they are talking about." It would not be far-fetched to assume you were being directly condescending towards them.

Thanks for taking an interest, although I don't really hold with much of what you have said.

I will try to make the definition of RP clearer. I won't be expunging all references to BBC English because I think it is one of the most useful and (widely) recognised ways to describe how the accent sounds without hearing it.

This is not a finished draft and I don't expect to get *nothing but* constructive criticism. Nonetheless, if you had *anything* constructive to say it would seem less negative. I'm not highly qualified in linguistics and I don't expect to get it all perfectly clear straight away. Nonetheless, I do have *some* idea what I am talking about. Please don't treat me as a fool.

Spiff

Yes, I did read the article, and it is about "british english" (which is almost synonimous with bbc engish), not about received pronunciation.

The reason that I point to there being a difference between the two, is because it exists.

A good example of finding RP can be seen by listening to the world service. Parts of this are presented in british english, indian english, american english, etc but they are all found using RP.

BBC english on the other hand was a particularly snooty form of british english, which like most outdated impositions is nearly extinct.

I do happen to think that what you have writen is fairly good, about british english. so, I think that you will probably have to change either the name or the content.

If you want lots of feedback from knowledgable people, then go to my user page, find the thread on "british english - the sequel", and post a request for feedback there.

Don't just take my word for it, or just disbelieve my word, ask the people on that thread what the difference is, and you will get a much more detailed answer than you need.

Hi Xyroth,

thanks for the reply.

I'm afraid I still don't agree, though.

We seem to have different definitions of 'British English', 'BBC English' and 'Received Pronunciation' respectively.

I will try to do something to clarify these three terms in the article but I genuinely believe you have misunderstood something in what I have written. Otherwise you could not have written:

<>

RP is a term that is most commonly found in linguistic study. It is often used a bit like a control in a scientific experiment. You seem to agree on the basic concept of what RP is but I still don't feel your reading of my article is quite accurate.

For my part, I will be re-reading it and trying to see how you managed to draw the conclusions you have. I know what RP is, and I know what is meant by BBC English. Is it possible that you are basing your problem with my definitions on ideas you already had. Have you taken the time to check up on any of those ideas? So far, you haven't given any specific definitions or references to refute what I have said or support your points.

<>

RP is ONLY an accent. It is a standard pronunciation of British English. In view of this, I don't understand the above comment.

In general, you seem to ignore the fact that RP refers only to pronunciation.

Standard British English refers to the language as a whole and as such includes many, many aspects of the language that simply have nothing to do with RP (vocab, grammar, etc).

BBC English is a widely recognised term (though hardly a 'technical' term on a par with RP and SBE) that refers to the kind of 'correct' (to the extent of sounding artificial to the modern listener, I agree) accent once widely used in British broadcasting and films, now particularly associated with the BBC of the 30's-50's.

In the item I mention 'marked RP' which is how some linguists have defined what I think you mean by <> The classic examples being The Queen, BBC English and Public School accent.

I have tried to make these distinctions very clear but apparently they were not clear to you. Equally, I can see that it is important to make clear that RP is an important and precisely defined system of pronunciation used in linguistics, whereas 'BBC Enlish' is something much less clearly defined despite being more familiar to many English-speakers. I will be getting back to work on it!

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to read it and comment. Hang in there and we'll straighten this out!

As for the British English thread, I was on there yesterday and mentioned an article on Prescriptive vs Descriptive approaches to grammar that I have got into a similar state of un/readiness. I agree that there are bound to be people down there who will be able to help.

I didn't really want to start asking all and sundry (not that I was expecting to draw a big crowd!) to read the piece as long as I wasn't happier with it. I figured that anyone who found it would have to have been looking for something about language, grammar etc. or simply wouldn't bother to discuss it. Perhaps I'll take your advice and stick the link to this one down there. Not sure.

Spiff

Hi Spiff,
I'm stalking. This looks like a good beginning, but I think it needs more examples. Would it be possible to make a table of some commonish words with their various pronunciations?
Although I have never spoken RP, I was nearer to it than anyone else in our phonetics class in the 1960s. I have definitely gone in the direction of Estuary (easily as I grew up in Essex) and would describe the result as "Standard British English" which is what EFL students want. This is very odd, as both Standard American and Standard Australian are much easier for non-native speakers.
Is there any possibility of IPA symbols? Could we write a separate article on that? BTW I don't think you mean 'attendant'

hi

thanks for wandrin' through.

Got to rush off, so I can't say much. Just one thing: 'attendents' was intended to avoid boys/girls, since these days there are both. I agree that 'attendents' is not very good, indeed I thought so at the time. I don't like 'pupils' much either, though, and I'm not sure what to put. I'll have a

Spiff

hey star, you know a lot about linguistics. how about a comment on this difference of opinion about the meanings of bbc english, british english and rp.

my take on it is that RP is an accent applicable to any form of english to make it understandable to any english speaker, british english is a subset of these english's that only some of the people speak, and that bbc english is a subset of that.

what do you think?

Hi Spiff. Don't be put off by Xyroth's brash exterior. His standard opening gambit is "Hello. How are you? You don't know what you're talking about."

Xyroth is always worth listening to, but in this case he seems to be wrong. Encyclopaedia Britannica says "The abbreviation RP (Received Pronunciation) denotes the speech of educated people living in London and the southeast of England and of other people elsewhere who speak in this way."

Hope this helps.

well, I wouldn't dream of claiming that I know better than the Encyclopaedia Britannica (at least until I had rechecked my sources).

It looks like I have some checking to do.

thanks gnomon for saying that I am always worth listening to, and I don't claim to be infalible, but the reason it seems to come across as "hello, you don't know what you're talking about" is because I actively cross-check new information against the older info, and query if there is a mismatch.

The mismatches can be caused by definitional or vocabulary differences, or by either side making a simple error. I suspect in this case that it is a case of vocabulary drift, where they used to have one definition, and it has now changed to a different one.

... goes hunting for up to the minute references ...

Hi y'all...
In another life, I wrote a book for EFL teachers on pronunciation teaching...it was all double checked for factual content by bods who know their onions, and so I feel confident in contributing the following quote from the book wot I wrote...

"There are many different accents within the variety known as British English, and most of these give some clue as to the regional origins of the speaker. RP is different, in that it says more about social standing than geography. It is still perceived as signifying status and education, and ‘the Queen’s English’, or ‘BBC English’ are often used as synonyms. The accent was first described as ‘Received Pronunciation’ by dialectologist A. J. Ellis, in 1869. However, the number of people who speak with an RP accent in Britain is currently estimated at about only 3% of the population and declining. It is also falling out of favour as a model as few British teachers naturally speak with this accent. However, RP has been the basis of much modern investigation into pronunciation and so its influence persists."

Hope this helps in some way
(and if anyone wants to help me retire and buy the book...just let me know
all the best
Enobal

Hello Enobal, and all who posted in this thread.

I've just dropped it into the WW in the hope of moving on to PR. There are some good points in this thread, and specifically i plan to look into that origin of the term and hope to include it.

the WW thread is at F57153?thread=215272 for any who would like to say any more on this. Although, given the first posting, it may move quite quickly to PR; i'm not sure.

look forward to hearing from you.

spiff