h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Estuary English - A655193
Author: Spaceman Spiff (MP) - AggGag Ish 42 - Our Final Answer! Out now in The Post! - U185155


hi all,

this is one of three related linguistics entries in which I've tried to explain some... well... stuff about English.

all comments and debate welcomed...+

Hmm, well, anyone who has heard me speak has heard Estuary English, although my speech isn't as 'common' as this makes it sound to be honest.

This section - The coalesence of yod isn't very clear, is there any way you can make it understandable to those wot actjaly speak it?

The only real objection I have is the use of the word cockney through the entry - a London/Essex accent isn't the same as cockney.

Hi Mina,

yep, the C of Yod needs work! I never really understood it that well myself, to be honest...

sorry if i've been misusing cockney. It has the useful quality of being widely recognisable.

I haven't really got this one finished yet, but I'm hoping a few days in PR may point out some of the key changes to be made.

ta for commenting,
spiff

No problem - I didn't know my accent was called this until I started seeing Blues Shark - he's been to uni you know, and is ever so posh - and he told me.

It'll be good to see it in the Edited Guide.

>> Gat’wick Airpor’

'Ga'-wick', surely?

I remember in the early 1990s, the discussions about this phenomenon used Paul Merton and Harry Enfield as examples of the accent, people in broadcasting who speak an almost Mockeney accent. In EastEnders, Babs Windsor and Jesse Wallace are good examples (cf Alistair McGowan's impersonation show, where they highlight an EastEnd denial as 'di'unt' instead of 'didn't' )

You can also see examples of this in Scouse, the accent spoken around the Mersey estuary. 'th' becomes 'd', as in 'Dee doo do, don't dee, do?' ('They do, though, don't they, though?'). The only major difference between Scouse and South London is in the vowels. London accents tend to be closer to RP with long vowel sounds ('travellin' farst'), while Scouse is closer to (ahem) 'proper' English, short, concise, Northern vowels ('travellin' fast').

Another thought came to me - maybe an example of the glottal stop before the explanation would be a good idea.

ok, just done a minor adjustment - getting the /j/ right in the Yod section.

Definitely right about "Ga'wi'" (that final glottal stop is a glorious example!)

I expect to do a major update in a few days to take into account all the points that come up by then.

thanks for the comments, keep 'em comin'!

spiff

Hi Spiff! This is a good entry and should be picked for the Edited Guide, after a little tidying.

"Vowel fronting, Glottaling, th-fronting and l-vocalisation
This sentence fragement looks a bit lost. Was it intended as a heading?

"If you find yourself doing that, you have gone 'beyond EE'!" - what does "that" refer to in this sentence? Is it dropping the t or not dropping it?

Can I suggest 'yoo-zhoo-ull' as a way of writing down the pronunciation of 'usual instead of the 'you-joo-ull' that you use?

The house style standard in the Guide is to use single quotations rather than double ones. This is going to cause problems for you because you use the single quotation for a glottal stop. Is there any way around this problem?

"it can be heard in the House of Commons as well as being used by some of the members of the Lords. It can be heard on the BBC and it is well established among the business men in the City. "

That section is in the entry twice, once under "Geographically" and once under "who speaks".

And some typos:

south-east --> southeast
southeastern --> southeastern
eductation --> education
defender's --> defenders
Gat'wick --> Ga'wick
misunderstanfings --> misunderstandings
accent.It --> accent. It

That should read:

south-eastern --> southeastern

I've asked Anna, and it will be ok to use single quotes instead of double ones around the words, and as the glottal stop.

This is grand for a glottal stop in the middle of a word such as 'Ga'wick', but it doesn't really work for 'Airpor''.

Er, good point.

*points a Jimster* he'll probably make more sense than me on this one.

This Jimster is loaded!

As you're not writing English (strictly speaking), the way I'd get around that is to italicise each glottal-stopped word. With regards quoting, you should always use single quote marks, and then double quotes inside single ones.

It makes much more sense to ask the member of the Guide team that is in the thread, rather than shout accross a busy office at someone else.

(Lend us a fiver Jimster )

thanks for the advice, Jimster, i've tried to solve the probs as you suggest, but i'm not sure if i've been consistent...

i don't suggest people try to go through with a fine tooth comb (unless they really want to) - i'll double check this soon.

I've also left the repetition of that para about who speaks EE and where - i'm not sure yet where it is most important - and how to finish the entry if not with that last para...

Gnomon, i've corrected the typos you listed, ta... except...

I'm sure we've had this little disagreement somewhere before, but i use The Economist style guide as a ref for things like hyphenation, and my guide says they stay in south-eastern etc!

thanks for all the comments, maybe give me time today to try another go at this before re-reading, as i've basically only made a few corrections here and there.

btw, Mina (and anyone else who's interested) what other term but 'Cockney' can i use to describe the London accent in it's deepest form, as heard on eastenders and in all kinds of Lun'un films and telly.

I need something to describe the Lun'un end of Rosewarne's 'continuum'...

I think you'll have to stick with 'East London accent'. There are quite a few different types of London accent, and I haven't heard of a catchy name for any of them. I'll have a think (and ask my Grandmother who grew up in Plaistow, and see if she knows a name. )

Spiff dude

Here are my sage nuggets of advice / niggles and you are quite literally free to do what you like with them The numbers refer to paragraph numbers.

1: Do it like the Chinese, ie from general to specific: "southeast of England, and more specifically..."
3: The Cockney controversy. OK, so RP is broadly based on educated London speech, and is clearly not Cockney ('Hello, we're Cockneys!' - Fast Show sketch ). But there is no alternative term for working class London speech, and no need to go into specifics - Cockney it has to be, Bow bells or not. Mina!

6: This comment needs developing as I feel it's important.

7: "Equally, many native speakers can vary their register so much that they can sway from one end of the scale to the other in a matter of minutes" How's about summat like "Equally, many native speakers make such different uses of register that they can sway from one conversation to the next" instead?
9: Give an example of the rise-fall intonation, if poss.

10-11: The t in water is technically intervocalic, rather than postvocalic. This is actually a position where /t/ is quite vulnerable to change (think of US budder for butter ). I'd say the safest position is initial, especially after a consonant, and the weakest position is as you say postvocalic, especially when before a consonant. Gatwick is a good example - it's very hard to make a fully exploded /t/ before a /w/ sound.
Also I think you should mention that /t/ be completely lost in some cases, eg Gatwick becomes Gawick, and 'thirty' contains a diphthong that is theoretically impossible in English
12: Wo' abaht bovver boots, eh, sunshine? (closest we have to a skinhead smiley).
And don't forget that voiceless 'th' becomes /f/, as is 'free' for 3.
14: The Chinese pronounce dark l as 'oo', so milk becomes mi-ook!

15-16: Yod - Oy vay! You might want to mention it's from the Hebrew alphabet, equivalent to our 'i'.
The pronunciation of news as nooz is elision (loss) of yod rather than coalescence. I'd say it's a Cockney/Essex(?)/Norfolk thing that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with EE, but I may be wrong.
I think lute etc without a yod can be considered the standard RP form now - certainly that's true for 'suit'.
An example of coalescence of yod is 'yoo-zhull' (that's the way I say it, and would prefer to see it spelt ): the /zj/ sound has merged to form a /zh/, in a process that's been going on for centuries: compare the English and French pronunciations of say 'vision'.

Also, h-dropping is a very useful indicator of accent, varying from RP speakers, who almost never drop aitches (except, perversely, in words like 'adhere') to true Cockneys who always drop them.

18: Stress of words like 'for'. Are you sure Blimey!

19: "young people with local accents": 'regional' sounds better here.

Phew, that's it, I reckon

thanks Jack,

just read through these points - great to have your linguists eye cast over it. ta again.

i'll go through and update today.

I'm sorry, but cockney is *not* the right word. My friends from East London have an East London accent, it is *not* cockney.

Cockney is as much a type of language as an accent.