h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi!

Thought I'd pop over from the arguments for disbelief convo. You make an interesting argument here, but I was just wondering where your Biblical evidence for reincarnation comes from?

Hi, pikin42 - can I get back to you on that on Sunday, when I have looked up some stuff? I have been thinking and reading about all this since about 1996, and I am not actually more than 85% convinced myself... but I'll get back to you about it.

Hello, pikin42, I am back (sooner than I thought I'd be).
I said I'd go and get some references and stuff together. I have an article I got from http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen3.html
The thing is that the Bible doesn't anywhere state that reincarnation is a fact, but neither does it say that it isn't. Hebrews 9.27, which says "[man] is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement..."
It is often used to refute reincarnation, but as Kevin Williams says on the referenced site: "reincarnation states that the spirit leaves the body at death, faces judgement then can enter a new and different body at a later time. In this way, Hebrews 9.27 does not refute reincarnation, because it is not the same body that dies again."
Other verses which are relevant, are John 9.1-2, and a selection of verses which all speak about the identification of John the Baptist with Elijah (Mt 11:13-14, Mt 11:11-15, Mt 17.1-13, Mk 9.13). Matthew 11:11-15 is the one most relevant here, where Jesus says plainly, "This is the one... there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come."
Many verses also imply pre-existence, which is a prerequisite of reincarnation. Malachi 1:2-3, and Romans 9:11-13 talk about Esau, and clearly pre-existence is implied, there. Ephesians 1:4 is another.
My belief in reincarnation came about because of things that have happened in my life, and also because of my belief in Universal salvation. It is very important to me to know that everyone will (eventually) be saved - and reincarnation seems the most logical way to bring this about. There is plenty in the Bible about Universalism, and so I am confident of that. I hope that's answered your question!
(I do not say anyone must, or should believe in either of these things - I am just talking about why I do.)Christianity is pre-eminent to me.

Actually, that link didn't work exactly as it should. Try this
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research35.html
That should take you to the relevant page!
This is an interesting site anyway.
Della the woman.

Hi

I cant get that link to work either However I'll have a look at the Bible references when I get a chance.

Drat, I am sorry, I tested them, but I'm sorry they don't work. Have some and because my son would like me to give you some..

Hmm, thats odd, I had the and and tried the link again, and it worked! Your son must have a magic touch

Well I had a look at the article and the Bible passages and I'm afraid I remain unconvinced.

The association of John with Elijah can just as easily be taken to be just an association as him actually being Elijah reincarnated - although Jesus says "for those who are willing to accept is, he is Elijah who was intended to come" (my translation from the Greek, which interstingly doesn't use "the" before Elijah as many translations do) I take that to mean that he is playing the same part as Elijah did and so in that sense "is" Elijah, for those who are willing to accept his teachings. Also John himself denies being Elijah (interestingly enough in one of the passages quoted by the article as supporting John as being the reincarnation of Elijah (John 1:19-27). John therefore was a prophet like Elijah but was not actually Elijah. (and even if you argue that he was, which I dont believe, remember that Elijah didnt actually die but was taken up into heaven (2 kings 2 1-12) so it wouldnt be proper reincarnation anyway!

Other passages (M=Luke 9.7-8, Matthew 16.13-14) suggest that Jesus was seen by people at the time as the reincarnation of John (not possible as the two met!), Elijah or one of the prophets. But Jesus denies this! And even the people don't suggest reincarnation but Elijah or the prophets coming back to life as themselves.

Finally the passages you mentioned about Esau and Ephesians 1.4 - if anything they suggest pre-destination but say nothing about reincarnation. God (existing outside of time) could have pre-determined an individual's life before creating them in time, it doesn't necessarily mean the soul had to exist beforehand. (I personally dont believe in pre-destination either but thats irrelevant for the issue at hand!)


I will admit the argument makes sense if you believe in Universal Salvation - if salvation requires on reaching the right spiritual level / level of good works, and everyone will eventually be saved, how else could everyone be saved unless they are given second chances at life until they get it right! However I personally don't believe in Universal Salvation or salvation by works. Because the way I see it, God is perfect and no one, no matter how many attempts at life they lead, can ever be perfect. He is so perfect He simply can't stand to look at any sin. That is why Christ died, because through His death our sins have been paid for. Therefore if we accept Him, God doesn't see our imperfections when He looks at us, He sees Christ, and Christ is perfect. Needing to be reborn so you can work your way to a higher level is, by this thinking, unnecessary as you always either reject Christ and God and so will never be good enough, or accept Him and so are made good enough not by what you do but by Christ's death on the cross!

Anyway, thats my view. I guess it all comes down to one's concept of salvation!

Just out of interest, what do you think about the argument that Jesus himself was / is reincarnated (there was a link to an argument on it on the webpage)?

Hi, Pikin, you have read exhausitively, and I thank you for your considered reply.
To me, being reincarnated in order to be (eventually) saved is not a matter of being 'good enough' or of works at all, It's just a matter of getting chances to become a Christian! If one doesn't accept that, then one must accept that people who, for whatever reason don't accept Christ are lost, OR that they get a second chance after death, but before judgement. Either one of these things must happen, and as I say, I am confident that there is sufficient in the Bible to support Universal Salvation - but *not* by works! Absolutely not, or as Paul says 'by no means'...
I also hasten to say that I don't 100% support the views of the guy who runs that site - maybe 85%...
As for the argument that Christ was himself reincarnated - I don't accept that at all. One of the Christian reincarnationists I read (Geddes MacGregor, not an Episcopalian at all, but a Presbyterian) has a similar view. Reincarnation is out for the Lord!

Hi

In that case it makes slightly more sense, provided of course that you believe in Universal salvation, which I dont. A minister said the other day that God judges people after their death because it is his very nature to do so, which is something that hadn't really struck me before. He used an analogy of a woman who stole milk to feed her starving children and was caught. The judge had to pass a sentence against her because he was a judge and if he didn't he'd be going against his job. So he fined her, but then because she couldnt affoard the fine offered to pay it himself. She then had three choices - she could disbelieve his offer and go to prison, she could believe it was a genuine offer but refuse it and go to prison, or she could accept it! Leaving aside the whole issue of those who have never heard the Gospel, I believe its like that between us and God - He makes the offer, we make the choice!

I'm glad to see you dont believe Jesus was reincarnated -although I can now understand why people believe in reincarnation in general that one ive never understood!

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Me neither.
I've always been exercised about Universal Salvation, because I didn't come from a Christian family, and even still, most of my friends aren't. I didn't become a Christian until I was 19, and heaps of my family still aren't.
Plus, I believe it has Biblical (and other) support.

And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."

Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist. (Matt. 17:10-13)


Alji