h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I've printed off the thread and will be making the nessacary changes. I agree with the points raised but I would prefer to offer a thread within the article to another piece that gives the 'logical' view of astral projection. In the end, to anyone who practices it, it is a very real thing and not just some kind of illusion. I feel that the entry is suitable for the guide because of this fact. Ok, so science can offer no proof, but then they can't offer proof as to why the bumble bee can fly! Everyone believes that a bumble bee can fly though because everyone has seen it happen. Just because people have never experienced a lucid dream or an out of body experience isn't good enough reason to right it off. In my opinion that's bordering on ignorance. It is a difficult thing to prove because it is a very personal experience. We know we all dream because everybody does it, but not everybody has had a lucid dream. Until you do have one, then you will always be a skeptic. There are articles on lot's of things in the guideand I expect that a lot of people have never experienced the things that are written about, but because they are physical things (such as car maintenance) you will accept them as truth. As a race we have a big problem with dealing with things we don't understand and rely all too much on science giving us a reasonable explanation. Science, however, can all to often be wrong and will also omit things that don't fit in to the results they are after. All i'm trying to say here is don't knock it until you've tried it!

I have experienced plenty of lucid dreams, for a long time. I have also meditated and experienced distinctly different brain states as a result. But I don't believe in astral projection. Don't assume that skeptics are skeptics because of lack of experience!

Fair comment! I stand corrected!

I have to ask though, you may not believe in it but surely you can relate to what it's like? Lucid dreams, in my opinion, are just a more random version of astral travel. The principle is still them same; you are fully conscious yet not with your physical body. Do you have a method for lucid dreaming? Or does it just happen?

My first lucid dream was a nightmare which I realised was a dream, and proceeded to mentally drop a mountain on the nasty thing which was causing the nightmare. The trick having been gained by terror, it was usable in calm, and it's a nice trick I can certainly relate to the feelings and effects you describe, and I'm certainly not saying that you don't experience them! I just have a different interpretation of what they are, that's all...

Can you do it at will though? I'm only interested because I've only ever done it by accident and havn't managed it since I seriously started looking into it! It's very frustrating and that's what has led me onto astral travel etc etc.

I used to have lucid dreams all the time, and on purpose. Before I went to bed, I thought about taking control of my dreams. Then, at some point in the dream, I took control of it. Nothing to it. I did this at a very young age, from about 5-9 years old. I quit doing it, though, because my dreams were more interesting if I left them to their own devices.

And no, I don't even begin to equate this to any astral plane... it's just a willful connection of my conscious and subconscious minds.

hi,
umm...i'd like to make a couple of minor points before i really get into the reason for reaponding to your comment.
1) i don't now nor do i ever want to be known as one of these horrible "little" people that has to comment about everything that they read.
2) i do understand that everyone has the right to their own opinions about any subject regardless on whether their opinions agree with mine.
3) if previously stated opionions do not agree with my own then this gives me no right to belittle or humiliate that person or persons in any way shape or form.

However, as the son of a scientist (marine biology) i thought that it was in some way (albeit a small one) poignat for me to point out the two recognised and highly contraversial problems with scientific reaserch.

The main problem surrounds the massive question of What is proof?
All scientific reaserch suffers from the inherient problem of focus (or rather a personal interpretation of the subject matter and therefore any bias toward the out come of the reaserch), as well as the problem of proving scientific fact.
Some would argue that scientific fact exists only in the minds of those that were in some way responsible for the reaserch program in the first place. Others would argue that their is no such thing as scientific fact that it's all just theory that "we" hail as "fact". While others may argue that in some cases (e.g with the question of whether or not astral travel exists) that as no one actually fully understands all the complexities of the human body and all the inherent problems that arise within these complexities that truly nothing can be proved or dis-proved until we as a race reach a higher level of understanding as to how all of the complexities of particularly the human mind fit in and work in conjunction with our surroundings. In short that everything that we as a race hold as "fact" is purely speculative as we do not yet have any of the answers necessary to prove if anything truly exists. This is where it boils down to a question (for want of better description) of faith?
Therefore, in your desire for "fact" (something tangible) that can't actually be proven you may have (albeit unwittingly) belittled the author of this article in their belief system.
Hence, due to the literal tone of your response to the article conveying the thought/notion that you were offended by the statement that "astral travel is something that we can all achieve" you may have actually performed the written equivalant of the "finger point "you're wrong" statement that we chastise our children for making.

anyway, i just thought that this would be (long winded) "food for thought".

if it's any concilation I'm actually so tired having written something equal to that of a legal document that my brain feel as though it's going to explode and therefore i'm extremely unlikely to ever make comment to your or anyone elses responses ever again.

-J

J,
This is the author. Good point well made! I'd be very interested in hearing about your experiences and your methods. I have researched the subject for quite a while but still have difficulty actually achieving it. Like I said before, my first experiences were through lucid dreaming but now I seem to have some kind of mental block. I can get very far with the process but just can't complete it. It's frustrating because it's one of those things I would really like to do. Perhaps that's my problem though, I can't echieve the 'will less will' I talked about in the article. Any help would be greatfully recieved. Might be worth starting of a new conversation about it somewhere though.
Cheers,

Spangled man.

Hi folks,

I'm subbing this entry myself, as our Sub was unavoidably detained, I'm afraid!

I've read through your comments, and I agree with what both sides have to say to a certain extent. I should mention that I'm of a 'scientific mind', and don't personally believe that there's literal truth behind the existence of the Astral Plain, but the entry's well written, and the effects that this type of meditation produces appear to be real, whether adequately explained by the Astral Projection theory or not. A great many people do choose to believe the theory, and I wouldn't reject this entry any more than I would reject an entry on a specific religion.

So, here's what I intend to do. I'll put a simple sentence at the top saying something like: 'This is a theory that attempts to explain the perceived effects of meditation and subsequent 'out of body experiences'. There are other theories that also attempt to explain the phenomenon, and it is left to the reader to explore alternatives themselves.'

Does that sound fair?

Tricky, very tricky...

Myself, I'd call it a 'belief' rather than a theory. I don't think the entry aspires to be a scientific theory, it's more a statement of a (widely held) belief. That's not intended as a slur, merely to point out that it's not aiming to be scientifically testable. Indeed, I would bet that a number of supporters would claim that the astral plane is 'beyond science', or similar.

As well as a suggestion to explore further, why not try and convince readers to write an entry themselves? "If you know of differing explanations for these phenomena, why not tell us about it in the forums below!?", or somesuch.

But aside from those trivialities, I reckon you got a good plan there - go for it!

Hi, I'm the author. I agree whole heartedly with that suggestion. When I put this entry up for peer review it sparked of quite a debate about whether or not it should be included in the edited guide. If i find the time I would like to research the psycology of astral projection and offer alternative theories, but if anyone else was willing to then fair enough! It was left in the hands of the sub eds before I had a chance to make any changes so I think it would be best for that sentence at the top of the article.
In the end it has been a widely documented phenomenon for a long time now and for the practicioner to have any succes they must believe fully that they can do it. This is why I felt that the article shouldn't offer any doubt about whether or not it can work. Of course people will believe that there are other explanations for the phenomenon but these views don't belong in this article.
I'm just looking forward to seeing it on the front page sometime!

Hi, I'm the author. I agree whole heartedly with that suggestion. When I put this entry up for peer review it sparked of quite a debate about whether or not it should be included in the edited guide. If i find the time I would like to research the psycology of astral projection and offer alternative theories, but if anyone else was willing to then fair enough! It was left in the hands of the sub eds before I had a chance to make any changes so I think it would be best for that sentence at the top of the article.
In the end it has been a widely documented phenomenon for a long time now and for the practicioner to have any succes they must believe fully that they can do it. This is why I felt that the article shouldn't offer any doubt about whether or not it can work. Of course people will believe that there are other explanations for the phenomenon but these views don't belong in this article.
I'm just looking forward to seeing it on the front page sometime!

Okay-doke - that sounds fair enough. I'll get onto that this afternoon.

*Checks watch*

ps there seems to be some connection between this, and the soul, as if astral travelling is possible, then the soul would definately be involved. what that would mean as regards the definition of the soul is questionable, however.

Hi! Chris, before finishing... could you please have a look at this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A586172 - Astral Travel ? It's got a PR thread at http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F48874?thread=125020 The PR posting was made by panos (http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/U180175) who could or could not have a second identity as J OMFC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/U180177) Bossel

Oh, and just to add to the Astral Confusion: 'A593002 Astral Projection' doesn't identify itself as being recommended or pending, the search engine says it's 'recommended' but the index doesn't agree.

Heh - you might have caught it between its 'pending' status and its 'Edited' status - it went up today.

As to the other Astral entry in PR, we'll deal with it when/if it gets Recommended by a Scout. If the Entry's good enough on its own merit, it shouldn't make a difference who put it in PR. In its current state, I don't think it will pass Recommendation, for the reasons that Infinity states. We'll see...

caught right in between the states, that doesn't happen too often

As to the other entry, my idea was to join the entries while neither of them has reached the 'edited' status, and thereby avoiding the Update HQ road ?! Not a good idea?

Yes - it was a good idea, but it came just too late - the Astral Projection entry went live yesterday (Monday) morning...

The two entries are quite different in nature, though - the 'Travel' one is more of a background to the modern 'hippie' culture, together with a set of personal experiences, rather than a methodology. Whether the first-person-ness of the piece will survive in PR is something we'll have to see if/when it gets picked...