h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

New immigrant communities have always been isolationist to start with - there was a fascinating series of programmes on Channel 5 recently about the history of Spitalfields which beautifully illustrated both tat point and the point that as the community has changed over the years from Hugeonot French to Jewish to Russian to Moslem to Bengali some spots of the old inhabitants have always survived and integrated into the new wave of immigration.

It was also revealing in that all the 'old' inhabitants were very vocally anti-Bengali.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4455469.stm


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Ah yes, the enquiries. Thanks for mentioning those.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories (sorry novo) "Big lies", as Fords pointed out above, are far more plausable than either fraud or outright conspiracy. What is striking about all the inquiries we have had is how they have singularly failed to really pin any responsibility on the actions of the government - and blame, such as it has been apportioned, has been rather spread out of a variety of bodies, governmental and otherwise.

To my mind the politicians have escaped more or less without censure. The reason being that for all the enquiries we have had (and I concede there have been many) none have had the remit of examining the political decision to go to war. This is why I maintain it deserves to be an election issue writ large, because if the voters to whom the politicians forever claim to be beholden, do not do so, no-one else ever will hold that decision to account.

Hutton:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2003/david_kelly_inquiry/inquiry_documents/default.stm

(specifically relating to Andrew Gilligan's claims about David Kelly's views regarding the construction of the dossiers.)


Butler
http://www.official-documents.co.uk/document/deps/hc/hc898/898.pdf


Iraq Survey Group
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/


(Butler and ISG combined, savage a number of the conclusions reached in Hutton about the state of the intelligence the government used to justify its actions which Hutton concluded the BBC incorrectly reported.)

Foreign Affairs committee
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmfaff/813/81302.htm

Which concludes that the information in the dossiers was important though some parts were given undue emphasis. Consequently ministers did not misslead parliament. (the central charge that had been made)

Interestingly, paragraph 186 of the FAC notes they were forbidden from questioning the prime minister during the course of their investigations. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmfaff/813/81311.htm#a24


Frankly Blue Sharks I am grateful for the enquiries we have had - no greater insight into the working of central governemnt have I seen. I do not anticipate any enquiry finding "proof" of a specific lie because I seriously doubt in the way of these things that there is one moment or one person who is entirely to blame or has deceived everyone.

The enquiries were never set up to assess whether the evidence was doctored. (so its missleading to say the enquires have cleared anyone of that particular charge)

Speakign personally, I see the decision to go to war (as oppose the to the contents of dossiers or the gathering of intelligence upon which they were based) as a collective failure and one that up until now continues to escape real scrutiny.

The Iraq war was always about oil. During the late 90’s, in the USA oil field press, you could read the Neocons talking up the invasion of Iraq. Speculation then was an oil price of $50 per barrel. American oil imports were split 71% Saudi, 19% Iraq and 9% Kuwait. Total imports made up 22% of total consumption. With an increasing threat from Saudi fundamentalists Iraq could not be allowed to stay outside of American control. And we are talking long term. When the present war is over the agreements will remain in place to allow the USA to control Iraq oil. Job done.

What is unforgivable is our role in the invasion when we have North Sea assets to rely on.

Correction: We would have north sea assets to rely on if somebody (and we're not allowed to mention names, but it wasn't B&B) hadn't p*ssed them up the wall.

Besides, the oil coming from the north sea is, if I remember correctly, totally different from that used in petrol production. It only has certain limited uses.

And it's only a thought, but maybe the reason the enquiries haven't put the blame on individual politicians because there is no evidence to convict the politicians.

History isn't a series of intelligent conspiracies. It's a series of f**k ups and accidents.

Good afternoon W A

Apologies for the delay in replying to your post, work intervened!

Yes I was referring to the North West, because that is where I live , and therefore what I can relate to.

It is a pity that you have not read my posts in response to Felonius Monk, in which I describe my happy working relationship with my Brtish born Hindu colleague. If you had you would know that I am absolutely not against immigration ( the opposite in fact) ,and that I have no race prejudice, no colour prejudice, no creed , hairstyle, or dress code prejudice of any kind.

I only object to groups, from whatever background, who do not wish to integrate, who actively segregate themselves, and in one area of the country which I had in mind, want not only their own faith schools established, but where the leaders of the community where asking for their 'laws' to run.

I accept the enriching of our culture that immigrants have made possible, but I cannot see how this enrichment can take place unless people mix. I don't want to stop Jews,Christians Muslims, Hindus, practising their faiths or their cultures. I just don't want to see it done in isolation, because that way causes tensions and problems.

I want a society where any of your examples can walk down my street, or live in it, without comment. It isn't me who cherry-picks , it is those who arrive with no intention of subscribing to 'our' way of life, and actively try to prevent the second generation, which in your example illustrate successful integration or 'blending in'of divergent cultures.

Finally , and perhaps as importantly I would like to be able to walk down and be welcomed in any street in the land, Sadly that is not possible in some areas.

Novo

I have to say that recent calls for sharia law to aply in certain communities did seem to me to be farcical and rather shamefully contary to the general spirit of British acceptance of immigration.

Afternoon Clive...

Your final para. crystalises the I W situation perfectly for me.

I think that it IS a big issue, about several thousand big issues in fact!

I believe that it is all very well to explain away what was done by saying how good it is that Saddam's regime is gone. To my shame I believed what I was told (or Fed) about the situation we faced, and I like many others was in support of the war.

I would not have been if the reason given had been regime change. And I suspect that others would not have been either.

Novo

Funnily, the opposite is true of me. I never believed Blair and Bush about WMD's and vehemently opposed the war.

However, subsequent events have forced me to reconsider that valuation.

Novo,

Why is it acceptable to have Catholic, C of E and Jewish single faith schools and not Moslem ones?

Good afternoon Blues Shark

Thanks for that, I coulddn't remember the the name for the 'law' which was being asked for. Clearly you got my drift thogh.


Novo

WA

I didn't mean to imply that it was. However as far as I know the C of E, Catholic and Jewish schools were and are integrated into society, observe our laws, and teach in english.
My concern would be that Muslim schools would presumably enshrine Muslim law ( Sharia ) which we can see is often contrary to UK Law, remember the family who demanded that their daughter be alllowed to wear the full length dress as well as the headdress, and then wanted to sue for compensation?
It is precisely this kind of refusal to accept the general behaviour ( note behaviour NOT religious practices )of the host nation as the 'norm', the insistance of not only being different and having different beliefs (to which they are entitled!) but to refuse to integrate.

I will not say this again. I'm fed up at having to defend my absolute acceptance of immigration , for social, humanitarian and political reasons, whilst at the same time pleading for integration.

>>Funnily, the opposite is true of me. I never believed Blair and Bush about WMD's and vehemently opposed the war.

However, subsequent events have forced me to reconsider that valuation.<<

In the spirt of the third way, I never believed Blair and Bush about WMD's and vehemently opposed the war and continue to hold in exclusion the reasons and the decision to go to war from its outcomes however disasterous or benign.

Which is totally fine. That particular issue is a matter for individuals, not for party politics, I think.

Sorry. Virus. Offline all weekend.

Posts 410-411.

Redpeckham, I said "Far Right" you read "BNP".


Post 412 - Bouncy

Do you have to have a specific job to have a work permit here? I know you do in other countries. Also, do the figures for Economic Migrants include or exclude individuals from the EU?


Post 413 - Redpeckam

"fed up with people who live in 'nice' areas who only base their decisions on theory"

Understandable.

However one of the things I dislike about the 'nice' area I am from is that it is very white. I find that oppressive and depressing, and I really to feel under more pressure there than I do in more mixed environments. I have no idea why.

I also dislike working in organisations which have an overly predominantly white staff. I think I prefer the tolerance which is necessary for a really mixed-race or mixed-nationality environment to work well.


416 - Clive

"How is this integrity" - Blues has handled that one.


Ben

NOVO,

There are Scottish and Welsh schools that don't teach in English and English common and statute law will always form the base of our legal system. We are modifying English law to combat the worst elements of some Asian practices such as arranged marriage. If Moslems want to subject themseves to Sharia law that's their business. What they do in the privacy of their own homes and places of worship is their own affair. It has no standing in the English legal system and everybody has access to that law. It's something like a Golf Club committee that finds itself confronted with a disgruntled member and his solicitor. t'Committee can have their own law but it is still subject to common law.

I think your insistance on the 'norm' is very controlling and stifling. You want integration but to your narrow standards. Who sets the code of 'normal' behaviour. Scots don't celibrate Christmas to the same degree as the English, are they then not integrated.

No, they just have a better sense of perspective...

Incidentally, for all those of you thinking of voting Blue. Think carefully. Phil Collins has said he might move back to the country in the eventuality of a Tory government.

Woahahah! Back up a little there.

What is wrong with arranged marriages?

*Forced* mariages are rape, and should be treated accordingly, and the genital mutilation which is referred to as 'femail circumcision' is just that - mutilation, but arranged marriages involve adults and are consensual.

Ben

But doesn't there have to be some level of intergration if you are ever going to get communities to accept eachother.
That doesn't mean destroying an immigrants traditional culture but providing enough support so that they start to feel part of this country.Surely isolationism helps breed racism because if communities don't mix it fosters distrust and misunderstanding.

B, the far right is the BNP, how much further right than the far right can you get?

And if you don't like living in all white areas then move. As I have said I rather like living in a multi racial area, but it still has it's problems and difficulties. i think you're somewhat over romanticing things. All nationalities and cultures are similar when it comes to tolerance/intolerance. A good example being attitudes to gay people; so if you happen to be gay it might be better to stick 'with the devil you know'!

Redpeckam.

1) The Far Right include the BNP, Veritas, UKIP and also elements of the Tory Party itself. This is why we have different words for the different groups. "Far Right" as an umbrella term, and "BNP", "UKIP" and "Veritas" for the specific parties, and "The Far Right within the Tory Party" for the far right within the Tory Party.

2) Move? Gosh! I am so stupid I had never thought of that. The Estate Agents' brochures on the kitchen table are only there because I like photographs of bathrooms, and the job applications are there because I like filling in forms.

3) My sexuality - well there's a thing. I realised that there isn't actually a term for the sexual group I am part of. I am not merely a member of a minority, but an unnamable one.

*shrug*

Ben