h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

yay.......

"I'm willing to bet folding that it already happens under existing Stop and Search rules. So that objection is a nullity."

The fact that it is already happening is not an argument to formalise the situation still further. I find it disgracefull that if I am out with pals of mine of different ethnicity they are considerably more likely than me to be stop and searched without any basis for this other than the hue of their skin.

I think ID cards would make this more prevelant.

*Bites tongue*

To be honest, as I said earlier, this is discussion about an inevitability.

ID cards are coming. The only discussion is how much they will cost and what will be on them.

My characterisation of Germans is - again - fairly high level and appears fairly flippant, but having spent considerable chunks of my life in the last 5 years working in Hamburg and Munich, I think it is fair to say that Germans do tend to be less anarchic than the Brits and that they are more likely to follow social conventions without challenging them out of stroppiness.

Munich *shuts* on Sundays. It is against the law to clean your car at home, and guess what - Germans do keep their cars clean, and clean them at Petrol Stations. It is against the law to mow your lawn on a Sunday, and Sundays are oases of peace and quiet as a result.

I am not sure if this shows a greater willingness to be law-abiding, or a greater willingness to be social, (rather than anti-social), in their behaviour.

Some stereotypes are in place because they are true.

Ben

Fair one blues...

And you are right of course, doesn't mean I either have to like it, nor accept that it is the correct thing to do. I will moan and whinge, and try to avoid paying any money until the last pracitle moment at which point I will bite my tongue and get with the programme.

Blues, the only things that have no been determined is how much they will cost and what will be on them.

It does remain to be seen whether or not the systems will work, or - more accurately - what glitches they will encounter. It also remains to be seen what their social impacts are.

I accept that arguing pro vs con for ID cards per se is hypothetical. But it is still interesting because debate is interesting.

Ben

I can't remember if its been mentioned already, but if ID cards were successful in preventing illegal immigration then maybe people wouldn't get so reactionary about that issue and controls might get loosened up a little.

Hi Novo

If you were actually involved in an RTA and a policeman asked you for some ID , are you saying that you would refuse ?

No of course not but i have a driving license with my picture on it and that it all i'm required to produce at such an event ~ providing my insurance and registration is up to date.
As some one else mentioned i'm sure shops etc will start asking for these new forms of ID and they'll be needed for everything.
I know i'm repeating myself but the security on these cards must be sorted out.
Also i resent the way the government is sneaing the technology in by changing the passport system ~ which is done under Royal Warrant instead of having the matter debated in parliament.

Hi Novo

If you were actually involved in an RTA and a policeman asked you for some ID , are you saying that you would refuse ?

No of course not but i have a driving license with my picture on it and that it all i'm required to produce at such an event ~ providing my insurance and registration is up to date.
As some one else mentioned i'm sure shops etc will start asking for these new forms of ID and they'll be needed for everything.
I know i'm repeating myself but the security on these cards must be sorted out.
Also i resent the way the government is sneaking the technology in by changing the passport system ~ which is done under Royal Warrant instead of having the matter debated in parliament.

Oops ~ double post .
How the ing hell did i do that?

>I accept that arguing pro vs con for ID cards per se is hypothetical. But it is still interesting because debate is interesting.<

I find this one frustrating. Concerns about the technology working aside, I really *don't* see what the objections are.

I have four objections to ID cards: One I don’t believe the technology or project management skills are available to build and administer a database to hold biometric data on 60m people. It would be another almighty Government IT disaster. Let them get the new NHS records system working. When they’ve done that and demonstrated an ability to deliver on budget and schedule maybe then I’ll begin to believe it possible.

Two, do you really think that a terrorist organisation that can execute something as complex as 911 will be dissuaded by ID cards. Of course the cards will be impossible to forge. Just like chip and pin will stop credit card fraud.

Three, the requirement to hold biometric data stems from our USAian cousins and their mighty Department of Homeland Security demanding that passports contain biometric data. For Bobness sake they stop Jumbo jets taking off if they happen to have a passenger on board called Patel.

Four, I don’t trust big government. They have demonstrated how not committed they are to freedom of access to information recently. N.I. number and date of birth are, or should be, sufficient to identify right of access to services. Do you really believe that if you were run over in the street that A&E would let you die because you had left your ID card at home that morning.

Wow ~ all the points i wanted to make but put much better than i did.

Working in government as I do, I'm afraid I find the 'Big Government' argument not only insulting but frankly laughable. Either we are Big Brother with all that entails or we are unable to run an IT project. Make up your mind.

I'll leave the ugly (and erroneous) Yank-bashing.

Just because something can be circumvented doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile. Or shall we all stop carrying driving licences because they can be, and are, forged?

Afternoon Wandering Albatross,

Fascinating dissertation, but as Blues Shark keeps saying, they are coming! my advice is to lie back and think of England.

As to your specific points,
1 You might be right about a giant Db. we will just have to assume that the technology is there, and that the commissioning dept, orders new kit with a designed programme , rather than grafting one on, al la CSA

2Are you saying that my chip & pin bank card is open to fraud, unless I'm stupid enough to disclose PIN atc ?

3Our US cousins are undoubtedly overzealous, you would be had it been Canary Wharf, and at least they are doing something.

4Your examples of necessary data are valid, and easily put into a chip, and YES I might be at risk in an A&E if the medics were not aware of a specific condition and the drugs I take. Yes I do have this info on my person but One card with relevant history doesn't phase me.

It seems to come down to a desperate need by some to be PRIVATE, when in fact merely by legitimately existing very little is that private.

Novo

Both Big Brother *and* unable to run an IT project...?

Actually, I think there is an argument for both being true.

First off, government IT projects don't fail because the people running them are cr@p. By and large the people running them are ok -to-good. They fail because they are very very difficult to do. Big programmes fail outside the government too. I could name half a dozen, in Telecomms and Banking, which have imploded in a mix of law-suits and recriminations, and those are only the half dozen I have first- or second-hand knowledge of.

Big IT is very very difficult, and the reason the govt is an easy target is that their IT is more visible than most.



Being Big Brother is more an attitude than a technology, isn't it? And people in this thread are clearly concerned about how easy it is and how much easier it will become for government to join the dots.

Since we are all - obviously - moral law-abiding models of social rectitude, I'll take it as a given that none of us would be affected by joined-up-dots being done right.

But how many of us would be affected, and how badly, if the joined up dots were wrong?

Example - a friend of mine with a German first name and a British Surname, neither that unusual, but unusual in combination, was in the Gyne ward of medium sized regional hospital *at the same time as* another woman with the exact same combination of first name and surname. My friend was in for cervical cancer, the other woman was in for a masectomy. At one point it looked as if my friend would loose her boobs because of a clerical error.

As the old adage says: "to err is human, to really foul things up you need a computer"

Ben

i don't think ID cards are definitely coming. Maggie tried to bring in cards for soccer hooligans and couldn't make it work. Come to that look how long it's taken us to build the new Wembley, a pretty simple thing compared to ID cards. Nothing is definite.....oh yeah and remember the CSA?

Well, I obviously only speak from the posistion of a one of Big Brothers willing lackeys, spying on the populace willingly in return for favoured status in the new world order.

Yeah, Right. Gimme a break.

>Being Big Brother is more an attitude than a technology<

Yep, and that attitude is represented by myself and the thousands of other civil servants who are, as we speak, preparing to start Working for the Clampdown.

Jeez Louise. I know it's in the interest of the politicians to represent us all as faceless automata. I had assumed a little better of this community.

As for the CSA, well, the dirt is still coming, and I'd be wary of assuming that the IT was the problem when it appears that they had a myriad problems of their own.

It's not just the CSA the new NHS records system has been a disaster.
And as was said before that's the nature of these huge systems ~ it's not confined to governments they're just hugely difficult to get right.
I've not been knocking civil servants or imagining the worst ~ i just happen to be a very strong believer in personal liberty and resent government interference in my life.
If this has to be introduced (and no i don't agree it's inevitable) i want a proper debate in parliament with all the security issues settled before it starts and not have it brought in by the back door of the passport system.

Government’s track record on large IT projects is lamentable so I would be very sceptical about their ability to keep personal data secure. And imagine the data protection knock on effect that would ensue if name, rank, number, last aids test and genetic susceptibility to heart attack were all held or indexed from a single system. I can’t change my wife’s Air Miles account by phone because of data protection. The protections to prevent abuse of the ID card system would be horrendous.

Computer Weekly don’t think the ID Card scheme is possible.

Chip and Pin is vulnerable because the cards still carry a magnetic strip.

If the NHS records system was working your medical records would be accessible, online anywhere you needed treatment.

I’ve just checked my wallet and I have 11 cards that identify me and that does not include my passport. Why do we need anymore? If immigration and illegal asylum were under control Kamel Bourgass would not have been in this country. How would an ID card have made any difference.