h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Youth Resistance in Wartime Germany - A2943452
Author: EdwardTheBonobo - U803114

This is a companion piece to my article on Georg Elser. A single piece on German Resistance would be way too long: There's much to tell.

I intend contributing more on the White Rose in the near future.

This is a good article! Just have a few comments.

"Members of swing clubs defined themselves by the term Lottern (sleaziness) and their musical interests went hand in hand with a desire to undermine the sexual mores of Nazi orthodoxy. (As in the US and Britain), the jitterbug was believed to be a particular threat to public decency."-- this is a typo.

"The Hitler-Jugend (Hitler Youth) would regularly attend Swing parties and their reports went into much detail as to the overtly sexual nature of the dancing."-- this sentence seems a little awkward to me. Can you reword at least the second clause?

"Led by Helmuth Hubener, the group (Gehard Duwer, Helmuth Hubener, Karl-Heinz Schnibbe and Rudi Wobbe) were (with the exception of Duwer) members of the Church of the Latter Day Saints2."-- Try, "The resistance group led by Helmuth Hubener included Gehard Duwer, Karl-Heinz Schnibbe, and Rudi Wobbe. With the exception of Duwer, they were all members of the church of Latter Day Saints."

There also needs to be a better conclusion to this article- perhaps try summarizing what these seemingly minor groups did to help the Allies win the war, and maybe end with a persuasive statement on why they need more recognition.

Can't wait to see the White Rose article! This is a group that I never even knew existed, and I really want to hear more about it. Good work!

Since I live in Munich and still go to University here, I came across some people who were actually involved in the Weisse Rose (White Rose)... And some people who studied (an aunt of mine BTW) under Prof. Wieland (organic chemistry) - whose group was dubbed the 'oasis of decency'. And when a new lecture hall was inaugurated in 2001 IIRC(it was named after Leipelt, one member of the White Rose who was murdered along with the Scholls) this people (few of them are still alive) said it would be appropriate to play Jazz music during the ceremonies, as it was what they'd listen to in the bunkers or in the labs. There's quite an awareness among students, at least here in Munich, about this Group of students and Prof. Wieland's group.

English culture and music was not frowned at by the regime, as until 1940 they still had hope that they would not be at war with England and/or America. The picture changed soon after.

HELL

Very interesting - I knew nothing about these groups until I read the entry.

I'm in agreement with S and T about the precipitous ending of the piece and the rewording of the Hubener paragraph - much better But I can't see the typo being pointed out in that first paragraph, and I don't have any problems with the second one.

There are some typos and formatting problems in the entry though.

All paragraphs need to be enclosed within .... tags. We rarely use tags - almost exclusively in quotes really.

"the topic of the German Resistance"
'Resistance' doesn't need to be capitalised unless it's a proper name.

reived wisdom - received

an corageous - a courageous

'youth groups' doesn't need to be in bold, neither does 'swing clubs' or 'Helmut Hubener Group'. Also, since the other groups described here were afforded full headers instead of subheaders, how about giving the Swing Kids a full header too, to keep things consistent?

"(As in the US and Britain)"
Doesn't need to be in brackets.

"overseas Radio staions to here their music"
'overseas radio stations to hear their music'

"beloved Jazz records"
'beloved jazz records'

"sent ino forced labour"
'sent into forced labour'


Scout

Many thanks, all, for the comments. You've reminded me of the importance of paper copies for proof-reading and reading aloud for style.

Hell - There's another researcher who would be very interested in your White Rose comments. I'll point her towards them. I suspect that others may be more qualified than me to write that article. I've discussed the topic with a (German) friend who, incidentally, has an impressive collection of KPD posters. He's more-or-less a communist and is of the opinion that the White Rose where somewhat politically naive. Having seen their literature, I tend to agree with them (they weren't very good pamphleteers) - but I in no way doubt their courage and integrity.

I'd also be interested in your comments on the last part of my Georg Elser article. Yes, it needs some stylistic re-work....but why are people such as Esler and the Piraten given so little recognition in Germany? The whole topic of historical attitudes towards Nazism intrigues me. This morning on the radio, I heard a historian talk about "the civil war between the generations over history [in Germany and France]".

Tschüß!

This morning, yes, a lot of discussion on the radio. Today, 40 years ago, Nazi occupation of Paris ended.

The 'white rose' movement during the Nazi Regime was certainly very naive, from a political perspective. From what I learnt, the movement originated from the friendship between the members during their medicine course in University. First of all they were friends. Also, they came from well situated families (not everyone was allowed to study medicine in these days). They did not come from labour unions, or from other - then forbidden - parties like the communist or socialist parties. I think for that reason they might have sounded 'naive'. They probably wanted to appeal to the people's emotions, and generate awareness, instead of giving a political programme and rational solutions.

Survivors and family members of the murdered mebers of the 'white rose' are very active today. They have created a foundation with the aim of promoting historical awareness (it is also their declared aim to change the image that *all* of Germany was evil, or at least seduced by evil, during the nazi period). They tour to colleges and schools and talk to students. They also offer courses for teachers.

About Georg Elser, the Pirates, Stauffenberg et al.

Georg Elser has not gained much recognition as he was supposedly working for the British Secret Service. This was probably Nazi-Propaganda against Britain - they probably didn't want people to become aware that *simple* people could plan and carry out an assassination plot, for that reason (my opinion here) they probably spread out the rumour, that Elser was a British agent. (This BTW also shows that the nazis *knew* they were not loved by all). I think for this reason it took some time to make him a real German - I am hesitating to say - hero... Whatever.

The pirates... Difficult to say, why they have not gotten more attention. I think there are many problems involved:

a) The perception today of how people perceived the NS-Regime at the time is very distorted. If you go out on the street and ask people about their grandparents, nobody will admit his or her grandfather was a potential war-criminal, or that his or her grandmother was a fervent nazi. On the other hand, a lot of people will tell you the story that their Grandparents secretly opposed the regime and hid Jews and were in reality the small-heroes nobody talks about. This is (from what I know, at least) *not* true, at least not until 1944. (Of course, when the bombs fell, and life was getting deplorable, and when the Americans came it was easy to oppose the Regime and welcome the liberators... The story is a bit different in the regions where Germany was 'liberated' by the soviet, but what the hey, let's not get lost in details.)

b) Historians, particularly German historians, are (in my opinion with some right to do so) very 'economical' in declaring persons, or groups of persons, heroes, or resistance fighters, dissidents etc.

c) The case of the Edelweiss Pirates. They listened to Jazz music, helped fugitives, killed a Nazi big-wig in a small town and were executed. Historians think, that this alone doesn't label a group 'resistance'. Sure they were decent people with a sad ending, but they acted locally, and (probably) had no German-wide ambitions. Historians say that similar groups also acted elsewhere, but did not represent 'serious' political opposition.

I think for this reason the Edelweiss pirates got less attention than they probably deserved.

Hmmm... does that sound logic? Is that in any way of help? (I don't remember if you mention any of these concoctings in your Entry. I just started typing this reply, maybe I am being redundant. Sorry if this is the case.)

HELL

Ja, danke.

Everything you say makes sense. Some of my interest in der Widerstand came from a discussion I had with the partner of my German friend (the same guy with the KPD posters). She objected to the portrayal of Germans in the book Captain Corelli's Mandolin because it didn't recognise that not all Germans were Nazis. Well....yes. But they did massacre Italians and Greeks on Kephalonia.

Of course it's all very complicated - much more complicated than the wartime history that we learn in Britain. And Britain still has an obsession with the war. Only this morning I heard a colleague making a shameful, war-related reference to Germans. So sometimes it's useful for us (i.e. the British) to look at German history in slightly greater depth, and my entry now has an ending to that effect.

I think my White Rose article is going to be difficult to write (Wollen sie etwas beitragen?). I feel would have to make reference to their lack of propaganda skills (calling for Germany's defeat would have been the equivalent of the present anti-war movement wishing for bombs in New York. Not the most persuasive approach!) and poor organisation (the KPD could have taught them about the cell method of organisation). But then, given the lack of knowledge in Britain, maybe it would be sufficient to put down the basics.

Können sie neuen Referenzen aufzeigen? Besonders über die überlebenden Mitglieder. Auf Deutsch ist möglich (mit Schwierigkeit!).

Let's stick to English so everyone else can follow...

I have not read "Captain Corelli's Mandolin". But I wouldn't object to the portrayal of Germans during Wartime being Nazis. Of course not all of them were, but from the outside this was not detectable, because a) those who were against Nazis, had to keep a very low profile (e.g. by disguising themselves, wearing insignias, hoiting the flag etc..) and b) those who were not Nazis, were not necessarily against the Nazis (conservatives and many among the catholic clergy, went conform with the nazis, without being member of the party, or wearing uniforms). There are also (very few) c) Nazis, who were not entirely evil. To an outsider, however, everybody was wearing swastikas, lifting their hands, marching and saying some cr*p about superior races, etc... And nobody was visibly against that. To an outsider Germans were Nazis. But I don't know what this book is about, so maybe my comment has no relevance at all.

About 'white rose'... I can give you their official link:

http://www.weisse-rose-stiftung.de/html/index.htm

See you later,

HELL

I don't have anything of particular merit to add, but I did spot a couple of technical errors.

Footnote 2 should come before the full stop in the previous sentence.
Dates should be written the other way round: January 2, 1942 >> 2 January, 1942.

I didn't quite understand your first paragraph. Maybe if I try rereading it a few times it will sort itself out.

I also hadn't heard of any of these groups, they certainly deserve their place in history. Thanks for giving it to them

VMT...

To Hell for the White Rose link

To Miloso/Bro for further comments. The reader is always right. If the first para is diccicult, it needs a re-write. I shall ponder.

Who IS this Dave Matthews guy all the Americans rave about? I guess I'm going to have to Kazaa him. (Currently listening to: Rufus Wainwright; Martin Stephenson and the Daintees; The White Stripes; PiL; Robert Wyatt; Can; Asian Dub Foundation. Desperately seeking some heavy dub/techno crossover inna On-U Sound Systems Stylee).

Okay, on revisiting, the first para is fine. I must have had mud-for-brains last week . Although you may want to mention in the first sentence what the resistance was to (since you don't mention Hitler until the second para).

I've changed my mind about the second footnote, too; now I think it should come before the first parenthesis.

In Leipzig Meuten you end by saying many areas were "no go" areas for Nazis. Can you explain why? What kinds of activities were the Meuten involved in that were sufficient to keep Nazis away?

Couple of typos:
corageous >> courageous
existance >> existence

And the last sentence in the last para on the Edelweiss Pirates is missing a full stop.


Dave Matthews, you ask?
A2866917
which is languishing in PR
F48874?thread=455774

VMT. I'll get to the various comments as and when.

As to the Meuten, though - would it not perhaps be slightly overkill to explain that they made areas no go by punching the HJ in the face, throwing things at them, hitting them with big sticks....

"As history has shown, the most effective argument against British fascism has been half bricks." (a post-Southall quote which one day I intend printing on a T-shirt)

Very interesting entry

I think Footnote One could do with some more work. Simply quoting the poem without any accompanying text doesn't, in my opinion, give sufficient info on who Pastor Niemöller was. I suggest that you add a sentence that reads something like:

"Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984) was a German Lutheran who was imprisoned in 1937 for opposing Hitler. Famously, he wrote the poem 'First they came...' in 1945." Then, include the text of the poem (assuming that it is not copyrighted).

Also, if the poem is in italics, it doesn't require quotations marks around it.

Great entry though

VMT also. Damn, though...it looks like I'm actually going to have to get 'round to working on it.

On the footnote - since it's a well-known quote, I was thinking along the lines of "When they came for..... That was him, that was."

"The Helmut Hubener Group were in some ways the anithesis of the Swing Kids."

anithesis> antithesis

The Germans used the guillotine? Where?

The "When they came for..." poem is often used
in the U.S., particularly by the NRA and the ACLU.
I for one, would appreciate seeing the original, as I
think it's been changed through copying.

"It is by no means clear that extent the existance and activities of these groups influenced the outcome of the war. In many cases, it may have opted to little more than "opting out" or, at best, a minor annoyance to the authorities. "

should be "It is by no means clear to what extent..."

also "...it may have opted to..." should be "it may have amounted to"

and "...at best, a minor annoyance..." should be "at best, providing a minor annoyance"

You mention the LDS. Were the Seventh Day Adventists, who are, if I remember correctly, effectively banned in Germany at the moment, a force before the war?

VMT. Done that lot.

I understand that the Guillotine was a standard means of execution in pre-war and wartime Germany (though I might be mistaken)

I believe that that's the whole of the poem. I *assume* that it's non-copyright because it's posted on lots of sites all over.

I know that the guillotine was the standard execution mode in Stadelheim (Munich) during the Nazi period (it's called 'Fallbeil' in German). Tenthousands were beheaded there.

Copyrights... Be careful, just because it is cited everywhere it doesn't mean it's free of Copyright.

HELL

"extent the existance and activities"
existance> existence

Well, that's certainly news to me about the guillotine. I am 42 and I have been reading about the Third Reich since I was twelve or thirteen. Perhaps a topic for another entry.

Yes, I concur with reference to copyright. The gentleman who authored it hasn't been dead long enough for copyright to run out on his works, unless he specifically committed it to the public domain.

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm

Nevermind. It was never copyrighted as far as anyone knows, because he never said it, per se, as it is quoted. The sentiment was expressed in many ways several times over by the gentleman, but
not, apparently, in that specific form.

The quoted versions of the so-called poem have been modified so many times, also, particularly with regard to the inclusion and exclusion of various groups.

Also, I mean the Jehovah's Witnesses, not the Seventh Day Adventists.
I get them mixed up sometimes.