h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have debateed my whole life on evolution adn religion. I don't really know how to believe in religion just that I am supposed to and it feels right. On the other hand I feel that evolution is the right thing cause it holds evidence, and that is a big thing with me. I am at a strong hold right now not really knowing which way to lead my life, adn with all current world events it is very hard to choose one side or the other. If I go with the god side I am setting myself in a holy war that is causeiing all of this. If I go with evolution and the theory that god does not exist I am standing back and watching many people die for no reason what so ever. Life is a starng thing that people will never figure out and I think that in times like this some people need a god and some people relize that there is no god and that people just need something to follow because they can not follow themselves. I think when it is all said and done, I do not believe in mans god but do have my own beliefs on things and that most humans are followers and not leaders.
John

What evidence is there for evolution?

I have seen none.

The evidence is everywhere...everything you look at has evolved to some degree. Look at the cromagnon man? That is a primitive human, look at us now.
John

But how do you know the things you hear are true? What if there is another explanation?

Cro-magnon man is fully human, we haven't evolved from that point at all. If you say we are more evolved than that then effectively you are saying we (in the industrialized world) are more evolved than the so-called Third World. If you take it further you might have to say all blacks are less evolved, since many have come from societies similar to Cro-magnon's (within the last few millenia that is).

ddombrow,

Drawing on one of your earlier comments...

What evidence is there for god? I have seen none.

Before you can debate against not only evolution, but also physics and all other modern sciences you must first understand what you are looking at. Learn a little more about survival of the fittest and then you can argue a little more... convincingly.

What evidence is there that we exist? It could all just be a trick, and we are imagining it...
How do you know that you have two eyes?
The point is, that we have seen the history of species' evolution and change; blacks, whites, modern monkeys and woodlice are all as evolved as each other to fit into the world that we live in today. Just because a monkey looks like something from a long time ago, doesn't mean it is that thing.


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This is evolution versus creation, not existential philosophy, Yesby. We are dealing with what we think we can see: if you want to argue against existence itself, then maybe this is not the place.

I was merely revoking a previous point, Caliban. The existence of life itself is a necessary foundation to your argument.

That is sorta the point. What we have now is what we know, as much as we can know anything. Atheism/Evolution and Theism/Creation are both inferences on what information we have.

You see no evidence for God, I see none for evolution. I would argue that it is because both points of view are the result of inferences made on available knowledge.

But we must ask what evidence we can trust. As it stands, you seem sure that we cannot know. But we must evaluate our resources before such a conclusion.

Not so. I absolutely know that God exists and the universe was created by him, proving it to you is the hard part.

To sum up my thoughts, there is no known natural mechanism for the origins of life, and even if you skip that the probability of evolution happening on a grand scale is prohibitively small. In fact, according to the laws of probability, its impossible that it would ever happen.

'God' is merely a way of dealing with primitive fears that was created by neolithic barbarians. In today's world we do not need to lean on religion or substitutes such as science: nothing is infallible in this chaotic universe we live in. I would say that humans are utterly unimportant, and that if such an entity as god existed it would have no interest whatsoever in mankind, but we are so insignificant that words would not be able to convey my argument. You only believe in god because people have told you about it and due to your naievety you believed. Think about the origins of such a belief: it was made up by humans such as yourself, grasping at any form of salvation they could imagine.

Ironic, people have told you about evolution and you believed, yes, in your naivety?

I don't see the difference.

But I have thought about the origins of "such belief", and I come to the conclusion that are absolutes such as right, wrong, logic. There is near infinite compexity in nature unexplainable by random occurence, a seemingly created order. There's an entire history of humanity's relationship to God called the Bible. There are miraculous events, coincidences, changes in the human heart. And most of all, I have been changed, bit by bit, by the influence of Christ. Nobody had to tell me about that last bit, I know it. All of it points to the creator God, of the Bible, and Jesus Christ.

ddombrow, hi again

It isn't a matter of people saying "evolution happens" and just accepting it. To see that evolution does indeed occur, you have to look at the many studies and examples that there are out there. I.e., proof.

"In fact, according to the laws of probability, its impossible that it would ever happen." No, I strongly disagree. I would agree if you were calculating the probability of all living things as they are today spontaneously coming together (or being created by something). But, evolution doesn't happen like that. It happens in tiny, accumulated steps over huge timespans. The key word here being accumulated. And don't forget, evolution is *not* random.

I will use the fractal example again: A simple iterated formula creates infinite complexity...

Ste

So you can create infinite complexity with a formula, doesn't this imply a pre-exiting law or order within the universe?

that's pre-existing, sorry

How do you know that the bible was written by people directly from god? All the evidence around us points to evolution, but the only evidence for god is the bible. All other religions have similar evidence, yet you choose Christianity: why? No other religion is any less valid.

The "laws" that I am implying are the totally automatic and non-conscious macroevolutionary forces that man has observed for the past 150 years.

Ste

I think we're experiencing a major difference of worldview here.

Evidence, especially the kind of evidence we're talking about for evolution, which is inferential, is really open to interpretation. Interpreting anything flows from certain assumptions. You obviously would have a naturalistic assumption, meaning that most everything can be explained by natural processes. I do not hold that assumption, and therefore interpret the evidence differently.

Hehehe, yeah, a major difference of worldview I'd agree with that.

So then, if you do not hold a "naturalistic assumption", what assumptions would you hold? and why?