h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Jazz,

'Future wars would be non religious'

Pillowcase has a certain point there I think. Look at the America- British war on Afghanistan and Iraq. They blamed the war on terrorism by Osama, yet they still have not released proper evidence to support Osama was behind sept 11th, and they don't seem to be looking for him any more.

The war was more about oil than any thing, especially as straight after they attacked Iraq.

True Saddam had to be removed but, Iraq wanted that to happen by other Muslim countries not by a western super power, that is only interested in the oil and making money.
One of the please Bush made was for People not to set fire to the oil fields etc.

There supposed links of Osama and Saddam are simply ludicrous as one is a dictator who does not follow the sharia while the other is trying to force the world to be under what he considers 'Islamic sharia' law, and so though both are evil men, they both want completely separate things and more over hate each others guts. I bet Osama was laughing when they attacked Iraq as they just got rid of one of his enemies.

Besides which there is only one country that has used Nuclear and biological weapons in war, and that’s America (Second World War, Vietnam).

As for the Jihad meaning Holy war thing, that is simply media making a misnomer.
Jihad means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone. Like a pupil at university will struggle to get his/her degree and has struggled to get as far as he/she has in education. In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war," a usage the media has popularised. According to Islamic teachings, it is UNHOLY to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. If we translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic, we find "harbun muqaddasatu," or for "the holy war," "al-harbu al-muqaddasatu". If you search all the Qur’an and Ahadith you will never find the word Jihad meaning holy war.

As such Holy war does not exist in Islam, it is simple a media created image which now is used, by people like Osama, to influence Muslim youth, who do not know much about there faith to join his terrorist group.

"The Pope didn't take the Islamic point of view on polygamy" Laugh very good. Well polygamy is not actually banded as bad in the Bible, as all the prophets had several wives etc. Actually it does not delve in to the question of how many people a person can marry at all. So I don't know why the pope did not allow it.

Though your point about Catholic versus Protestant is valid. I don't know much about that. Actually thanks for clearing it all up, I did not know what the difference was or why they wanted to kill each other all the time.

But, this is what I think.

religion, its self is never the reason for war, moreover it becomes the excuse for war for people who do not understand other people's ways or to suite there own goals.

If every one actually followed there faiths properly, there would be no violence in the world, apart from the non believers maybe. Joke.

Adib

Blast, I hat my computer, sorry about the multi post, balsted machine.

Adib

A friend recently reminded me of a saying I have heard all my life but hadn't thought about for a long time. 'It's no use trying to teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and just make the pig mad."

Muzaakboy, since you enjoy educating us about Islam, could you tell us please if followers of Islam are encouraged to pursue a spiritual path? Are there Islamic equivalents to contemplative Christian orders or contemplative Buddhist orders?

The topic of this conversationis supposed to be about following a spiritual path and if that is possible outside of organized religion.

Adib,

I join Hypatia in thanks for you very erudite coverage of your religion, what a pity so many people are not so learned.

And I apologise, Hypatia, for leading us away from the main topic of discussion - I see no problem in following a spiritual path outside of organised religion but would like the opinions of others.

Jazz

Isn't Sufism a 'mystical' Islamic path?

Salaam, people.

Well sorry I did not reply earlier, i.e at 8:30, but I was writing this massive reply about Islam and spirituality, and I had a fatal driver error in the Nero cd burner which crashed micro soft explorer, somehow, and resulted in my work pc booting up, loging in, then restarting in a near endless cycle hmmmmmm.

Needless to say, its of to be fixed, and I'm stuck on another brothers PC as my work is more inportant.

anyway to the topic at hand, well some of it. the article on here number A827408 labels spirituality as having these key points

The fatherhood of God
The brotherhood of man
The communion of saints and the ministry of angels
The continuous existence of the human soul
Personal responsibility
Compensation and retribution hereafter
Eternal progress open to every soul

Islam agrees with most of these, but for further info you can check out my entry called 'a overrview of the five pillers part 1 (Shahada)'.

But Iwill inshallah, god willing, be her tomorrow to add more, as its 18:30 and I'm going home from work now.

Adib

Except for needing to add the mother energy
I like that list for myself.

I could never buy the Christian Trinity as it was taught to me.
There must be female energy.
In my mind we become more unisex as time goes on. If there is a pappa and a son then there is a mother somewhere. It may be mother earth but *she* exists in some form of spirit energy.

I have enjoyed reading your posts Muzaakboy.
I am glad you have done all this writing for us
Thank you

Salaam,

Thanks I am glad you enjoy talking with me, I to am pleased, as normally it turns in to a lets slag each other off because we have different beliefs thing.

It makes me happy that we can talk about such things without stooping so low.

Also I only know so muh because I'm a revert and so I studied Islam before reverting to Islam (Muslims believe that ever one is born Muslim, but circumstances change there faith or views on God, such as being baptised, Muslims believe that all animals and plants are also Muslim's and worship God in there own ways.
Also I work for an Islamic company and teach Islam to people from all back grounds and ages, so I am always learning.

Anyway to clarify what I was saying earlier about spirituality.

Muslim's believe in one God which takes the role of the farther hood figure, but we do not see God as being man, the reason in english translations the word he is used so much in the Qur'an is because Allah is a masculine word, an it has no plural or femine variations like the word God does, though it does mean God.

Anyway we see God as having no sexual characterisitics, as sex is for creatures that have to pass on there jeans, and they do this so there species will continue etc.
We do not assosiate any physical image with God as what ever God looks like, noone knows and we can't comprehend it.

We believe that there is only one God and that if there was two gods or more, the world will be in choas as they would both have different ideas of how things should be etc.
Also when people talk of god, they say he is all mighty or the most powerful but if there where two or more, then he would not be the most powerful as there would be two all mightys ect, which makes no sense in Islam.

Moving to the brotherhood of man, well firstly there is three levels of brother/sister hood in Islam.
There is your blood sister's and brother's and then there is other Muslim brothers and sisters and finally all Humans.
It is an obligaition on all Muslims to try and look after all three types of brother/sister to the best of there abilities.

An example of a Hadith about this is:

The prophet Muhammad said "If you see bad/wrong been done to anyone, then change it, if you can't do that then speak out against it, an if you can't even do that then change it in your heart, an that is the weakest in faith".

It is telling Muslim's that if you see wrong done to anyone then do some thing about it, but the least you do, of just changing it in your heart (i.e. when you see some thing bad and you really want to change it but you fear you will be victamised if you do so you don't do any thing physically to change it but in your heart you want to) is an act by the weakest in faith. Meaning that if you see a non believer mistreated, or a christian or a Muslim etc being victamised then change it even if that will put you in a persition where they might pick on you, as that is an act of selfness's and charity to the person being picked on, which is the sign of a true believer.

Muslim's do not really belieave in saints in the same sense that every one else does.
There is three different levels of saint.
The First level of saint is that of Messangers and Prophets sent from God.

The second level is that of people who met and followed the messangers and prophets, i.e. the deciples of Jesus.

The Third level has a cetrain set of criteria, but we do not really know what they are, as only God has the power to judge if someone is a saint or not.
So for instance we do not see mother terresa as a saint, she was a holy woman who did much for her faith and did much good, but as being labelled a saint, that for Muslim's is left for God and we will find out on the day of judgement.

This is because you can get people who say that they are saints but they drink and take drug etc.

As for angels, well Muslims do believe in Angels and form a back bone of the faith, see the entry I spoke of in the above thread.
We believe that there are no good or bad saints as they all obey God and hve no ability of free thought, which is why we are the best of Allah's creations.

Muslims believe that all souls are eternal once Allah has greated them, meaning once there created we live for ever, but once the body dies we will be raised up on the day of judgement and sentanced on our actions and our intentions.

We believe that every person is born free of sin and that we are only accountaple for our own actions and sins, and no one elses can be put on to someone else, an so we do believe that Jeses died on the cross or that he died for our sins, as we find it un-God like to sacrifice a messanger in such away, especially as he did not want to be crucified, there are plenty of people God could have choosen to die for peoples sins, who would not mind, like John the Baptist.
Well thats what Muslims think anyway.

As for compensation and retribution people will be held accountable for there sins, but if you have had a hard life then God will compensate you for that, meaning if your been a really Good person and lived in terrible conditions all your life you will be vastly rewarded more than some one who has been a good person but had an easy life.

I'm not sure what is ment by eternal progress of the souls, so if you can explain that, I can speak of the Islamic perspective on it.

Muslim's do not believe in Mother energy as already explained we do not have a concept of a God with a male or female sex.

As for the trinity thing, when I get those witnesses at the door I always have a friendly chat with them, but some times if I get a pushy one and I will ask them about the trinity.
And they will say that the spirit is 1, God is 1 and Jesus is 1, but there not 3 different God's there all 1 God, or another way of putting it is The spirit is 1 entity and God is 1 entity and Jesus is 1 entity but there not 3 different entities there only 1 and then one step futher you get the spirit is 1 person, God is 1 person and Jesus is 1 person but there not 3 person's there 1 person, and I ask them, what language is that you are speaking, its not english. 1 person +1 person +1 person = 3 persons not 1 person

No offence ment by that to any christians reading that, its just my view on the trinity thats all.

Anyway, look forwad to your replys, and my work computer is still down, but as I have bookings at the Islamic Exhibiton today, tomoorow and Friday I am busy enough.

Once again sorry for the long post.

Take care.

Adib

Muzaakboy - Is Sufism part of Islam? If so, do you know anything about it that you can tell us here?

Sufism is something that intrigues and fascinates me, but I don't know much about it. My impression is that is the mystics' path in the Islamic tradition, somewhat similar to the path that the Christian mystics took/take - a more 'personal' or esoteric dimension of, or path to God/Allah rather than one that blindly follows religion.

Is this right, or am I way off track??

salaam,

Well I do know a little about Sufi's, and I have two friends that are Sufi, butI don't really know much about them other than this;
But first I will deal with try to deal with shia muslims first and then go on to Sufi's, I will explain later.

When prophet Muhammad died it was decided who should take the persition as the first Caliph. One branch decided that only his family (I.e. His son) should be the Claiph, while the other group, the vast majority of Muslims thought that the most knowledgable and pious Muslim who knew the prophet should be the Caliph.

Needless to say the Majority won, and Muhammads son did not get to be Caliph until the 2 or 3rd Caliph had died. Sorry I can't exactly remember which it is.

anyway the majority that won became what is now called Sunni Muslims while the other group became Shia Muslims.

A few wars unfortunatly was faught over this issue but thats because it stopped being about who the rightful aire to be the caliph was, and became a physical dislike for each other, but luckerly these days it has become less pronounced in most countries. But some still have there differences.

basically the difference is just about one rule in the law, that has led to two seperate branchs whose only real grudge and difference is about whom the first Caliph should be.

Moving on to Sufism, this is a branch of Islam that can include people from both Sunni or Shia or they might just be Sufi and not really follow the other paths.
Needless to say though main stream Sunni and Shia both dislike this group because they do things against the Qur'an and come out with very unislamic statements, like some groups walk the streets flogging them selves, or at least they did about 15 years ago in Pakistan, don't know if they still do.
Anyway I think they believe they can form a mystical unity with God through ritual music, dancing, meditation and some times physical pain, but that is, as far as I am aware, a small portion of Sufi.

I think you could describe them as being a little like the Christian monastic orders. These orders provided a way to popularize Islam among the general population, especially in the non-Arab Muslim world.
All this being said though I have to acknowledge that some of Islam’s greatest poets and philosophers have been Sufi's or from Sufi back grounds.

thats all I know on Sufis sorry but if your still interested then you can try these sites for more info, as I did a quick search for you, but have not read any of the sites yet, so I don't know how truthfull of detailed they are.

http://www.questia.com/Index.jsp?CRID=sufism&OFFID=se1

http://www.amideast.org/offices/kuwait/saud/islam_branches.htm

http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Music/Dance2.html

http://www.wfu.edu/wfunews/1998/013098s.htm

http://www.uga.edu/islam/sufismislam.html

I would recommed maybe going in to a Muslim book shop and asking for any books or free literture on Sufism, and there are some shops that cater only for Sufi's so good luck.

Sorry I can't be any more help than that on the Sufi subject.

Take care

Adib

Thank you Muzaakboy. I certainly know more about Islam than I did when we began this conversation.

Do you mentioned that you are an instructor of Islam. Do you teach comparative religion or deal with Islam alone?

Sufi poetry is certainly beautiful and very inspirational.

H

Salaam.

In Birmingham UK there is a pernament ISlamic Exhibiton, which I am the co-ordinater of.
So I have to some times teach the children who visit, but usually I train the stewards.

But if they get asked a question they can't answer then I get called over.
Like today we had a kid ask why Muslims are not allowed to cut there nails on Hajj, as the reason why we do it everyone knows but as for the actual no, it was unknown to the stewards.

The answer is that once you don the Ihram (the Hajj clothing) you are in a state of purity and worship of Allah, and so such acks like cutting your hair, nails is not allowed as it will take you away from the worship of Allah, but once the Hajj is over then hair and nails can be cut etc.

Anyway, the exhibition is not comparitive religion, and only deals with Islam. It is used mostly by schools to supplement R.E lessons on Islam, and by teachers for training if they work in schools with mostly Muslim pupils, and by council groups who deal with mostly Muslims, and police cadets etc.

It is designed to educate people about Islam and get rid of some of the myths about Islam.

My job makes me very busy, as I have to schedule schools and other visitors, training sessions, making posters, dvd's and stuff and putting up with my boss.

I am glad I can be of some use to you.

Adib