h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>The skinny supermodel can only really exist as a parasite on or product of a media environment, whereas whatever people felt about the old-style real-man attributes (independence, strength, potential violence, etc.), they were attributes that didn't depend on the existence of a supportive system.<< Potholer

hmmm, I'm less than convinced about that. In New Zealand the stereotype is Southern Man/Man Alone - tough, emotionally contained man who shoots deer and who beats back the bush (and beats his wife). From what I can tell this stereotype arose at least in part from how early Antipodean writers were portraying men and is probably a response to our (colonial) pioneering roots. I'm not sure that those writers were 'Real Men', which is interesting in itself.

You can trace this theme through mainstream culture to today where there is a long running series of TV commercials for beer that has two backcountry Southern men in a series of vignettes like the one where the younger man is offered two tickets to the local dance by the barmaid who obviously fancies him and expects to go with him. He takes the tickets with gratitude and takes his male friend instead (read younger man is a bit thick, but also prefers the company of his mate than a girlfriend, because women are afterall only useful at certain times). Laterly there has been a lot of hilarious interpretation of the Southern man as gay, although it's hard to tell if this is intentional by the advertising agency.

My point is, the structures that support the myth have been there alot longer than what we consider modern media. As a woman interested in what is real compared to what is projected in terms of gender stereotyping, it's been interesting to look for the non-stereotypical in how NZ men are protrayed, and I have to say that the Real Man thing appears to be more about who has control of the media than anything else. If women and or Maori had been prominent writers in early NZ colony, we would have had a different set of stereotypes all together (which I guess is what is happening now, the stereoptypes are changing).



I've spent alot of time in what is considered one of the last bastions of the Southern Man, and I do think that the stereotype is partially correct. Alot of the men of the men I know do have those attributes. The problem is that isn't all they have, so maybe it's a matter of an incomplete portrayal (I've seen big tough men cry for instance, and many of them have a much greater tolerance for strong independant women than alot of city men I know). And of course there are men who don't fit the stereotype at all, but who often try and live up to it (which produces some pretty weird results).

I guess as we become a more urban society there is less need to be able to shoot deer (although wifebeating is still very popular), and so the need for the stereotype changes. 'Metrosexual' is a media construct, but it is based on a real change within society (I think it's a bullshit stereotype btw, just pointing out that there was something real behind it).


>>>
Surely to compartmentalise in this fashion as 'straight', 'gay' or 'bi' would be seen as offensive but is a highly emotive issue: The need to be seen, "scene" or unseen is so important to everyone, in case you grasp the wrong end of the stick.
<<< Chubstar

I think the need to compartmentalise sexuality comes primarily from heterosexist/homophobic society, because either it's straight people who think the whole world is straight and then need a framework to understand their confusion in when they find out it's not, or it's homophobes who need a target for their fear.

Queers needing a closet, or a scene do so because because heterosexist society defines them as other, and has the power to make that matter.


I think there are similar factors at work with the Real Man thing - how come society ended up so afraid of men who weren't the stereotype? Or ended up so afraid to tell the truth about it's men?

Surely the fundamental reason to compartmentalise sexuality is the same reason for compartmentalising relationship status - to help people work out who they could or could not end up sleeping with, and to help people work out if someone really *is* just being friendly, or if there's a potential come-on happening.

Still, regarding the 'Real Man' stereotypes of cowboy-film type, it's possible to concieve of a society where most men did have the attributes and things did still actually work. The stereotype might be a fantasy, but it is one at least theoretically capable of bulk deployment.

It's hard to imagine a world full of supermodels actually surviving for long beyond the first tantrum before everyone starved to death.

Real Man? Total Sh**e!

Men have balls 'n' women don't. The only difference is physiological. For every stereotype there's some brawny porridge-eating cowboy who started crying before he got his pants on. Who gives a f**k?

Please, there's not one person alive or dead who fulfils this kind of dumbass stereotype. Give over people.

Let's have a sensible conversation in the morning.

<> )Hoo)

But it isn't a compliment because the fantasy woman is someone living in your (the man's head), not the real life person in front of you. Also it's very hard to live up to, if one has been called that.

Ice.

"But it isn't a compliment because the fantasy woman is someone living in your (the man's head), not the real life person in front of you."

But that fantasy is an *ideal*, an unattainable perfection. Surely to be told that you achieve perfection is a compliment?

"Also it's very hard to live up to, if one has been called that."

Ah, well, now there's a different kettle of beefburgers altogether. Saying "You are the perfect woman" is one thing. Expecting someone to BE the perfect woman, all the time, in all circumstances, is quite another.

I'd suggest that the first is, and should be taken as, a passing compliment. The second is practically psychological abuse, given that it's setting someone up for a failure which is inevitable.

H.

<(I've seen big tough men cry for instance, and many of them have a much greater tolerance for strong independent women than alot of city men I know).>

Maybe because a strong independent woman that can go work on the farm, rip a bear's arm off and beat it to death with the wet end, and still be back in time to cook dinner is a bloody useful sort of woman in more rural areas.

Apparently the list in NZ runs more like this :

tipping over a 110kg ram

fitting a set of snow chains

digging in a fence post

backing a trailer with a load of hay

blowing a dog whistle

opening a bottle of Speight's® without a bottle opener

jetboat sprinting on Lake Wanaka

http://www.perfectwomancompetition.co.nz/ (sponsored, in part, by the aforementioned beer company).


I found it somewhat surprising when I first realised that macho rural communities valued capable women, because the myth was that women were to be kept in their place. Of course that is totally ridiculous as strong women are essential. But the negative side exists too as evidenced by the censure on strong women who 'control' their husbands (this accusation being applied to any woman who's husband isn't doing what his friends want).


For those who think the Real Man thing is a myth, how come so many men try and live up to it?

I think it's a cultural thing as well - I know that many Maori expect their women to be at least as strong as their men, in a lot of ways stronger.

*tipping over a 110kg ram - never tried it

*fitting a set of snow chains - done it in Austria

*digging in a fence post - done it in England

*backing a trailer with a load of hay - done it in England (not far though)

*blowing a dog whistle - done it- why is this hard? .

*opening a bottle of Speight's® without a bottle opener - Assuming there isn't something drastically weird about Speight's bottles, and assuming there's a nearby table, no worries

*jetboat sprinting on Lake Wanaka - never tried it but sounds like fun

Tipping over a 110kg ram - done it often, from the age of about 13. I grew up on a sheep farm. It's actually quite easy if you've played rugby (tick) and know about centres of gravity. And when a sheep of any gender is on it's arse, there's not a lot it can do about it.

fitting a set of snow chains - yup. Didn't like it, had friend to help, but did it.

digging in a fence post - oh, ever so many fence-posts. Big six-foot ones. Lots of grunting and swearing.

backing a trailer with a load of hay - can't drive.

blowing a dog whistle - I could whistle the dogs without a whistle. I win.

opening a bottle of Speight's® without a bottle opener - easy. Find a fence post. Put bottle cap against it. Smack hard with hand. Hurt yourself considerably. Get demo of correct technique from step-Dad. Repeat for twelve years, master it at last at the age of 20, decide bottle-openers are far more sensible.

jetboat sprinting on Lake Wanaka - and this makes one what exactly apart from rich enough to afford to get to Lake Wanaka and hire a jet-boat?

"And when a sheep of any gender is on it's arse, there's not a lot it can do about it."

Not a lot it can do about what exactly?

*not risisng to bubba-fretts' remark*

Of course we categorise, stereotype and pigeon-hole, it's what keeps us alive. One of the most fundamental tenets of survival is to learn - very quickly, and based on little experience - what is good, bad, dangerous, sharp, hot, heavy, likely to eat you, likely to be tasty, likely to be poisonous etc etc. If you gave everything and everyone the benefit of the doubt you wouldn't last 5 minutes.

I would however venture that the definition of "real man" is too vague, fleeting and subjective to ever be successfully categorised.

Real men can slide tackle. Even on artifical surfaces.

Real men mow lawns.

Real men get a kick out of making furniture. It's a competition between you and the manufacturer.

Real men don't know the difference between jojoba and tee tree oil.

Real men open jars.

Real men own at least own power tool.

Real men don't like Ally McBeal or Katie Melua.

Real men don't pretend to have a clue what goes on in a womans head, but are sympathetic.

Real men don't moisturise. It's the law.

Real men only cook on barbeques.

Only Real Men are allowed to cook on barbeques.

I only fit two of those criteria (the Ally McBeal one and the moisturising one), does that make me an unreal man?

Real men can slide tackle. Even on artifical surfaces.

So Douglas Bader wasnt a real man


Real men mow lawns.

Follow the tribes of people who travel bareback on horses, eat raw flesh and drink horses milk mixed with blood or the tribes who live in area's where the temps drop to minus forty and eat nothing but meat for certain parts of the year. When you catch up with any of them try explaining what a lawn is.


Real men don't like Ally McBeal or Katie Melua.

liked Ally McBeal it reminded me of Reggi Perrin a bit and her flat mate was Dont know much about Katie Melua except her album is advertisedon the backs of magazines I dont read, so I probably wouldnt like her.



Real men don't moisturise. It's the law.

Looks like that's me out of the man club then

















Real men don't pretend to have a clue what goes on in a womans head, but are sympathetic.

Things go on inside womens heads

If you are a Real Man attending a barbeque at another Real Man's home, it can be seen as a act of extreme provocation to poke at the fire with a stick without being invited to do so.

What about telling the Real Man that they're doing it wrong and they're supposed to wait for the flames to die down and the coals to start going ashen? Is that considered bad etiquette given that the advice is coming from an unreal man?

BTW, I didn't mean Ally Mcbeal the programme I just meant Ally McBeal AKA Colista Flockhart... horrible skinny skeletalmumblemumblemumble...