h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Here's a good piece on the broader implications.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia

and an interesting bit on the cyberwar happening alongside the real fighting:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1670

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881382459561105.html

still far from over, not that I think anyone is surprised.

That's funny you mention hypocrites cl zoomer, I think you're a hypocrite for criticizing the US invasion of Iraq without criticizing the Russian invasion of Georgia.

It's become a novelty to find a serious discussion on hootoo that does not rapidly degenerate to vulgar insult and personal attack.

Interesting, just b/c I show up and make 1 comment, you consider the whole conversation to have degenerated?

Well, it was a personal attack.

There's a lot not in the newspapers about this.

Georgian elections were heavily questioned and there is no free press in the country. Dictatorship is a word that might be used.

However they were strung along by the West and America in particular to make this challenge on South Ossetia we all know that some of the former Soviet States are close to personal playgrounds of local despots, and that the USA declares them allies in "The War on Terror "(TM) on the grounds that - the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Of course, pipelines have no influence on this at all.

>>There's a lot not in the newspapers about this.

Georgian elections were heavily questioned and there is no free press in the country. Dictatorship is a word that might be used.<<

The Economist has had quite a lot on the situation in Georgia and the elections.

I don't think the elections were as bad as that McKay, while Saakashvili did start to act like a tin-pot dictator, he pulled back from some of his worst ideas. I think the OSCE report said that while there were some major problems and discrepancies, the will of the electorate was seen through.

Similarly, freedom of the press has improved since 2006. Though there are still major problems, Georgia is probably the most free nation currently in the CIS, and of all the former Soviet states, only the Baltics are better.

Article on CiF from Saakashvili - whatever you think I think it behoves one to read what he has to say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/15/georgia.russia

(btw, this is different to the /georgia.russia link posted earlier)

only comment I'll make is to answer one of the final questions:
"if the west is not with us, who is it with?"
a) 'the west' is not a single entity with a single mind
b) Itself. Just like everyone else is.

Arnie, if you have a closer look, the sentence doesn't preclude condemnation of both groups. Watch that paranoia, I think Russia and the US are both misguided.

Well I think the Russians are doing exactly the right thing. Dithering and lack of strong action would just lead to all manner of conflicts and skirmishes happening on Russia's borders in the long term. You send out a strong and unequivocal message, that you won't tolerate any such messing about. And you come down, and come down hard on any state that thinks it can tweak the nose of the Russian bear. I think it's naive to expect any thing other than this from a proud militaristic former main super power in the world. I've been 3 times to Russia, and Russian pride took a big knock after Soviet power declined in the world. All the intense rivalries, that had been previously kept in check, under the Soviet umbrella, were always going to go through a period of instability. And if not dealt with ruthlessly, by a strong Russia, all hell might easily break out.

You can't compare the relatively pacificist outlook, and traditions of the Canadian cultural perspective, with people living in that part of the world, having centuries of intense rivalries, intense patriotic pride, posturing, flirting with war etc.

Yes I think the Russians did exactly the right thing in that context. And if the Georgians ever had any doubts about the Russian will, they certainly certainly don't now. And I think they were excessively naive to ever believe otherwise.

and as if the Russia military involvement wasn't enough it now appears Georgia is to be invaded by Cameron

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7564012.stm

I do feel for them.

That'll learn 'em..

(And is that some sort of new Tory style salute he's doing in that photo? )

*people living in that part of the world, having centuries of intense rivalries, intense patriotic pride, posturing, flirting with war*

Oh, you mean like the Quebequois and the FLQ?

>Oh, you mean like the Quebequois and the FLQ? <

No.

Hundreds of bombs exploded, terrorism, diplomatic hostage taking and murder, the War Measures Act.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0003082

My point was that the *the relatively pacificist outlook, and traditions of the Canadian cultural perspective* is not as foreign to this situation as you might think.

And you seemed to have entirely missed my point, given the vast potential for goodness knows what long term conflict in the whole region, from a variety of former Soviet states with very ancient traditions, histories and differing ethnicities. We know all too well the hell that broke loose in the former Yugoslavia. I think given the *realities* of the very ancient rivalries and in many cases deep seated hatreds which there are, that it would be naive for Russia to not take a tough stance with Georgia.

It comes across as pacifist because you just say you think Russia is misguided. If you are really taking on board the situation of a former super power, with a centuries long tradition of fear of invasion from both east and west. Wars a plenty for centuries. A Russia surrounded by many states with national identities, going back in some cases more than a thousands years, intense rivalries, old scores to be settled, in the context of essentially peasant based societies, I don't see that your attitude can be construed as anything but tending towards the pacifist.

I am giving an argument that for Russia not to act strongly in this situation is just asking for trouble big time, in the longer term.

You seem to be comparing it with the relationship of a relatively young former British colony with a relatively young former French colony. Where's the real equivalence in the two situations.

And you still haven't given any explanation as to why you think Russia is misguided.

Since you missed the smiley at the end of post 35, I'll let you in on a secret, it was meant as a humorous comment. Post 37 was in case you misunderstood the reference that made it humorous.

All imo of course but I believe Russia is misguided in pushing past Ossetia into the sovereign state of Georgia, which it now seems intent to do. Supporting break-away states is one thing, invasion is another. Especially when oil pipelines are involved, as i am being constantly reminded.

I'll let you in on a secret - I didn't miss it.

But you are just viewing it all from your North American cultural perspective and not taking account of other very different histories and cultural realities in other parts of the world.

You have good company I believe. Our main serious current affairs programme here on BBC2, Newsnight, has just announced that the whole programme will be devoted to a discussion concerning US disapproval.. You think both the US and Russia are misguided. Stop sitting on your hands and being so bloody Canadian.

But seriously I'd fear for the hell breaking out in the region long term if the Russians listened to your advice. And yes of course oil is an aspect. It's what makes the world go round here in the west. I sometimes get so fed up with idealists who are more than happy to live their oil dependant priviledged lifestyles, and then start tut tutting as soon as the 'O' word is mentioned...

I'm with the Ruskies. I don't sit on the fence. (And besides oil, far more important to me is a regular supply of the real McCoy Stolichnaya vodka, via the 'vodka pipeline'. I acquired a taste for such whilst there...

So what should the Russians have done? ....IYHO?