h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ed my point to WA is his *style* of argument. His facts maybe correct. But how is anyone to know? This is The Forum, not a 5live message board. WA continually ignores requests for examples of this personal experience of hoop jumping that he claims to be so adversely affecting his life.

I have no interest in his POV until he starts engaging in debate here properly.

With such an emotive subject as this, so prone to misinformation in the media, it is especially important to be able to back up claims or at least give proper detailed explanations of personal anecdote. He does neither.

I really wonder what was the real motivation for starting this thread with caps lock on.

Nobody has ever accused shipowners of being altruistic. They didn't drop the Chinese crew, the trade moved to Southampton with the introduction of containerisation. In fact it was the white crew who were dropped as soon as they possibly could to avoid the NUS who I could claim were one of the factors behind the demise of the British Merchant Navy.

Let me nake the point again. The depiction of British society, in order to comply with legislation such as the RAce Relations Amendment Act 2000, is having just the opposite effect. It is causing rather than ameliorating racism.

Effers you are presenting yourself as some sort of histrionic Year 12 student. Have you never heard of sublety, nuance or perception. For the record and your advice I read the Independent, the Economist and the FT and my days of being lectured to or passing exams are, for the present, over.

> Have you never heard of sublety, nuance or perception.<

Yes and I've also heard of misinformation, half truths, urban myths, sterotypes, etc

I'm unsubbing from this thread WA, you'll be pleased to know.

>histrionic Year 12 student.<

And this is the kind of comment that shows me the way your mind works, WA. *I* have huge respect for our young people, depite what the tabloid would have us believe.

In the words of someone earlier..

"OK bye"

>>the trade moved to Southampton with the introduction of containerisation.

Not according to the r5 series last year, on Chinese in Britain. The Blue Fummel pursued a policy of laying off chinese crews in 1947, with the complicity of the authorities who were happy to deport them. This was before the container was invented.

Your turn.

I meant r4

And FuNNEL. Etc. etc.

I sailed out of Birkenhead and returned to Liverpool on many Bluies with Chinese crew from the late 60's and then out of Southampton in the late 70's on OCL conatinerships. The Far East Bay boats all had Chinese firemen and stewards.

Apologies a little history needed to clarify the last spot of thread drift. The Far East trade, which was the mainstay of Blue Funnel Line was subsumed into Overseas Containers Limited (OCL) along with P&O. OCL first containerised the Australia-Europe route with the first large container ships, manned by P&O and Blue Funnel pulled out of the traditional Australia trade and P&O out of the Far East routes.

OCL then containerised the Far East-Europe trade with the vessels Liverpool Bay, Tokyo Bay, Kowloon Bay, Cardigan Bay and Osaka Bay. These were known as the Bay Boats.

"I didn’t know that Liverpool FC was Protestant and Everton Catholic. Not that I cared much then or now."

They're not.

The fact that there are two football teams in the City of Liverpool has nothing to do with religion. A Methodist chapel formed St. Domingo FC in 1878, largely as a youth outreach project to give kids something to do. The name changed to Everton the following year because of the level of interest outside the parish. Liverpool are the illegitimate offspring of Everton, being formed by their former landlord in 1892 after Everton left Anfield after a rent dispute. Both teams have had players and managers linked to Rangers and Celtic.

I view the anti-racists in the same way I view the moral puritanicals. It's an attempt by a very vocal minority to force people to think & act the way *they* think is right & proper.

There's been a number of instances of art being decried as porn. Some people look at a piece of art and appreciate the beauty. Others look at it and get an erection. They thus deduce it's pornographic. Because of the sick & narrow minds of such people, you cannot take photos of your kid at a sports day, or in a swimming costume, or sharing a bath.

Similarly with the anti-racists. They look at one part of a job market, see that one group are seemingly under-represented and shout "racism". How come it never works the other way? In 2003, 22% of medical students in the UK were Asian, despite Asians only making up about 5% of the population. http://student.bmj.com/issues/07/01/reviews/43b.php I don't see anti-racists making a song and dance about that. The truth is, cultural backgrounds affect aspirations. Just as some areas will be over-represented by some ethnicities, other areas will be seemingly under-represented.

Anti-racists have got such a hard-on about racism that they see it everywhere.

We've got ourselves tied up in knots as a society, dancing to the tune of the narrow-minded. To the extent that some people here barely bat an eye at the idea of 3 & 4 year olds having files kept on them and being subjected to "re-education", that the State will enforce an ideology on infants.

I can honestly say that I have never consciously committed a racist act. I believe in treating people with equality and taking people as I find them. But we have a government that believes in racism, that enforces racism by law & statute. And the cheerleaders in here will clap & cheer and dress discrimination up in flowery prose. The more fanatical soon resort to insults & abuse, showing their true colours.

"It's an attempt by a very vocal minority to force people to think & act the way *they* think is right & proper."

What exactly is it that the anti-racists say that you object to? As for vocal, I think you'll find that the most vocal are the "PC Gone Mad" brigade. What's big news is these fabricated stories, not the genuine problems of racism which get little media attention.

"To the extent that some people here barely bat an eye at the idea of 3 & 4 year olds having files kept on them and being subjected to "re-education", that the State will enforce an ideology on infants."

But that isn't what's happening. Haven't we already agreed that the Telegraph report is a misleading piece of sensationalist nonsense? And haven't you already agreed that's perfectly acceptable for teachers to challenge racist behaviour, and that those who don't should be sacked? What's changed your mind?

Or is this another example of what always seems to happen - story appears, someone posts it here with fuss and outrage, someone else points out why the story isn't how it's been spun, there's some vague concession that that's right, yet deep down the paranoia version of the story is what's remembered.

"But we have a government that believes in racism, that enforces racism by law & statute. And the cheerleaders in here will clap & cheer and dress discrimination up in flowery prose."

Any examples? This just sounds like more of the same empty hyperbole. Has anyone here actually cheered discrimination? Or is this just more "straw targets"?

"They look at one part of a job market, see that one group are seemingly under-represented and shout "racism". How come it never works the other way? In 2003, 22% of medical students in the UK were Asian, despite Asians only making up about 5% of the population."

Actually there's a lot of work going into trying to increase the numbers of working class kids aspiring to medical school and other health careers. No-one has ever claimed that race was the only factor that counts against people. But have you ever asked yourself why such a high proportion of medical students are Asians? I suspect it's for similar reason to the high proportion of Asian shopkeepers - it's a profession where there are plenty of role models and wider public acceptance (and expectation, almost) for Asians in those roles.

The fact that there are a disproportionate number of Asian medial students doesn't prove that there's no racial discrimination in other fields. Do you remember that BBC survey that I posted the link to that showed the difference in chances of getting an interview depending on the name put on identical CVs?

"I can honestly say that I have never consciously committed a racist act. I believe in treating people with equality and taking people as I find them"

I'm not racist in the sense that I hold actively, deliberately racist views. But I am prejudiced in certain ways. I try not to be, but I find I have certain prejudices - for example, I find I'm more nervous of a group of black youths when walking home after dark than I would be for a similar group of white youths. Don't want to be, but I am.

Prejudices are not just about race, but class, sexuality, gender, etc etc etc. Prejudice is unconscious and operates in ways that people often aren't aware of. IMO, prejudice is much more of a barrier to equality than outright racism. If you can honestly say that you are free of prejudice, then you're a better man than I am.

1) The book that this woman is flogging recommends that racist incidents be reported to the councils as often as possible. Presumably, records will be kept.

2) Empty hyperbole? Positive Action is racist and sexist discrimination, let's not beat about the bush. In addition Harriet Harman plans to bring in legislation encouraging further discrimination and making it illegal for white males to sue. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/26/gender.equality

3) Did you read the link from the Asian medical student?

4) Yes, I remember your chastening link about cv names. I wonder what would happen were the experiment to be repeated with Asian firms, or curry houses or the Hackney Empire? There's only one kind of racism that's frowned upon though.

I read about an experiment where students were split into 3 groups. One were labelled "green", one were labelled "purple" and the 3rd role-played employers. As they gamed interviews and selections over a period, it became clear that the "greens" were disproportionately successful in interviews. What was happening was that the first "greens" did well at interview and subsequent green candidates were viewed favourably as a result. An entirely human reaction. However, substitute "white" and "ethnic" for "green" and "purple" and an anti-racist would scream racism.

The point is, racial imbalances in life are not always the result of racism but racism is cited as the be-all and end-all.

Yup, I'm prejudiced. I'm prejudiced against the type of people that are so dim as to think "their" media sources are unbiased whilst everyone else's are.

>>The Far East Bay boats all had Chinese firemen and stewards.

But how many officers?

>>"I didn’t know that Liverpool FC was Protestant and Everton Catholic. Not that I cared much then or now."

I didn't know this either, when growing up (in fact - is it not versa vice? Who cares!). However...on moving to Glasgow, I have discovered that people *here* know which is which.

WTF?

>>I view the anti-racists in the same way I view the moral puritanicals. It's an attempt by a very vocal minority to force people to think & act the way *they* think is right & proper.

So racists are entitled to act anbd think in racist ways, then? Racism is a mere matter of taste. How vile!

I see where you're coming from now.

To quote Abe Lincoln:
'If i[it's] not wrong, nothing is.'

>>How come it never works the other way? In 2003, 22% of medical students in the UK were Asian, despite Asians only making up about 5% of the population.

This is, of course, because UK universities market extensively overseas. They earn more money this way than they do from the lower fees charged to domestic students. It has *nothing whatsoever* to do with favoritism towards Asian medical candidates.

SWL: It would be more useful if you could quote something from your extensive clippings file on the representation of British-born medical students of Asian background or origin. If this information is in the sources you read.

>>I can honestly say that I have never consciously committed a racist act.

I can well believe that you believe yourself to be non-racist, SWL. I doubt, for example, that you spit at people or inflict violence upon them.

No. You restrict yourself to promoting a passive racist agenda on messageboards. Subtle!

>>The book that this woman is flogging recommends that racist incidents be reported to the councils as often as possible. Presumably, records will be kept.

Ah. So it ain't actually happening, then. The Telegraph got the sensationalist 'Toddlers Must Eat Lime Pickle' headline from a suggestion in a book.

WTF?

Absolutely spot on. None.

Too many posts.