h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

That said...that particular Telegraph story is worth a read, if only to note that the headline in no way reflects the story's contents...a story which already contains the weasel word 'could' in relation to the issue in question.

Media Literacy 101, guys!

Keep a cuttings list? It's today's story.

Using derogatory racist names is of course not on. However this can be dealt with at the time with a quick word from the adult in charge. Why the need for reporting every incident to councils? Are the diversity officers running out of work?

One thing about kids, they're honest. If they don't like something or someone, they'll say so and say why. They haven't been browbeaten by the thought police yet into hiding their feelings and watching every word they say.

One of the most common insults in the playground is "You smell". By highlighting saying "You smell" when directed against minorities, this is emphasising and reinforcing discrimination.

What's a kid to think when they can say wee Johnny smells but not wee Abdhul?

You are assuming of course that Diversity Officers are only capable of dichotomous thinking and not of judging cases on thair merits. When my daugher complained, age six, that some nasty children were saying that her classmate was smelly because of his dirty skin they were, yes, being racist. That didn't take a diversity officer to sort it out. The school took the comemnts of Concerned Parents seriously.

More sophisticated than a cuttings file, then? An RSS news feed to stories with a racist subtext? Neat!

But I still don't quite get what you're arguing here, SWL? That schools shouldn't take Diversity seriously? That that shouldn't act on racism?

That *they*

How about a link to the BBC Five Live Message Board?

Oh what curious patterns that you weave,
Convuluting thought streams you conceive,
To find a racist at his basest,
You turn over rocks in unusual places.

But perhaps the racist isn't there,
Perhaps the cupboard is really bare,
To find the racist, the mirror turn'd,
In the reflection, the truth is turn'd
Think what you like, I just don't care.

Bugger, ad hoc poetry is never a good thing:

In the reflection, the truth is burn'd

Preview is your friend

Afternoon Novo,

It's good that you feel you can be honest about your feelings and thoughts on this issue in general, but are willing to give it more thought, and examine your reasons for thinking the way you do. I for one appreciate that, and it most defo indicates you are young at heart and willing still to be flexible in your thinking, (hope that doesn't sound patronising - it's meant as a compliment)

And there's no way of predicting who might have racist thoughts about these things. It frequently takes me aback, when people you assume must be fairly comfortable with multi cultural, racial areas, suddenly tell you what they *really* think. My ex-girlfirend's parents, are both very active members of the Labour party, from way back when; when it was more genuinely socialist. They once visited her, (she lives just up the road from me), and we went to a local market in a very mixed racial area. It's the best place for miles around for a huge choice and variety of food and other stuff; plenty of the traditional cockney type stuff as well. I love it.

Anyway as we walked through the market, they suddenly turned to one another and grimaced. The mother said something about feeling a bit swamped, and not much liking it having so many black faces around at once. Right, she was being honest; but what took me aback, was that they could see none of the positives. Only negatives. It's a way of thinking about things, I suppose. And when we got home and all discussed the issue, they weren't interested in hearing the good things.

(incidently they were also very homophobic, and didd their best to scupper our relationship. They most certainly contributed to it ending, and made things really difficult for us...Again they could see only negatives. And weren't willing to change their minds.)

5Live message boards are the lowest form of wit, I find. In fact - any psephologist perusing message boards before any election - even the r4 ones - would be forced predict a BNP landslide.

SWL...you know my opinions on you. I don't think I'm overturning any rocks here.

That's a profound point about seeing the positives, Effers.

'Stay away! We don't trust you.' vs 'C'mon in! Let's make it work.'

To Effers and Ed & Blicky

As previously said, I hadn't realised that my view of the changes visible was a form of passive racism, because I had often made the point that I understand the need to accept change, I have no active prejudice against any race or creed, and I recall saying many times that I appreciate the change in our overall culture to the benefit of all.

I hope that I am no worse than any other OAP in wishing that things I knew and places I knew remained as they were - however silly that is.

My main difficulty seems to be in adequately making my point, that my main target has always been to achieve racial and cultural integration.( as far as possible)

So I accept the criticisms from yourselves , and am trying to absorb into my 'thinking' the points that you have made.

I still take the point raised in WA's initial post, which to me points out the difficulty in maintaining the rights of one culture -without balance. I gave as an example ( admittedly extreme ) the apparent acceptance in one culture of the 'honour' code which can and indeed has resulted in murder, and certainly in much oppression women with regard to marriages.

The point I was trying to make is that such a divergance of view between the communities does harm , and I was trying to illustrate that living within tight uni-racial communties cannot help us to bridge the cultural gaps, nor help to foster better relations as a whole.

I was thinking in terms of our acceptance of West Indian culture over the years, which was in part aided by the interacial marriages. Although I don't live in London, I can see the value of a polyglot mixture each giving and taking something of their cultures to make a society which is diverse, but works.

Because the more fundamentalists in Islam aappear to be so against such integration that I have concerns that a group which effectively closes itself from the host population will never truly mix and create a society in which we can all benefit from each other.

Is that still being racist?(passively), or does it make some sense to either of you. Perhaps in 2050, what I would like to see as one nation, with separate beliefs, but a common goal ( perhaps along the USA model - different faiths but all Americans ) will have come about - but I'll be long gone by then!

Novo
to all.

"Do we get the same consideration of the indigenous population's culture? No, we don't: it is always suggested that 'we' should be tolerant but I think it should work both ways.

Interesting point and one made over and over again.

Lets see what of the indigenous culture has been destroyed by the incomers shall we? I'll have a little go here but I think this is worth a separate thread in ask.

Nothing.

What has been preserved?

Obviously there's the corner shop and the local independent chippies as opposed to the pressure on these institutions brough about by Tesco, McDs, ASDA and such like but lets not make a fuss about them as they arent brown people or Muslims, is that the way it works?

As I say there will be another thread for this but for now I'll say the two things that have changed since I were a lad and have had the biggest effect I can see.

Cars, there being lots more of them mean that if you are walking around you're in more danger of being hit by one and less safe on the streets as there are less witness and potential help to put off muggers and other people out to get the vulnerable. Plus we speak less to each other and interact less socially.

H+S and frivilous litigation they have massivley changed the way we do things and made some things nigh on impossible to do where does Sharia law and people who cant speak Engliah fit into that picture?



"Until all the cultures accept the basic values of the nation as a whole, there will be occasions where the sometimes great difference in views will offend one side or the other.

Im breatly offended by SWLs attitude to capitalism and the market economy. I think he and it undervalues the individual worth of people. I have as many problems with the people who worship gods as I do with those who worship Mammon. I could say the same for other people but I dont band them all together because of one common link. Its worth remebering that many Muslim youths and other children of immigrants want to reject their parents values just like most other rebellious teenagers, but when they feel rejected by the groos over use of lazy rejudiced steretypes they are driven into extreme and extremist behaviour.


"We all need to accept change - that is how any society benefits from new cultures and new ideas - but it is not wrong to feel that some ideas are intolerable.An example would be 'honour killings' which are unacceptable to us and which we call murder. These may be rare, but the treatment of some Islamic girls and women can only foster divisions, not heal them.

But this whole thing was started off because some people might not want to put a picture of a dog in their window...is that intolerable? We have people on here defending the rights of Catholics and Protestants not to rent accomodation to homosexuals because of religious considerations and traditional values yet we need to force pictures of dogs on people. I think we need to get a sense of perspective and stop jumping on every Muslim/brown skin rejection of tradition as if they were all beyond the pail stuff like honour killings.


"If you cannot grasp my point, I invite you to visit Bolton, or Bury or Bradford and compare these towns with say, Arundel or Axminster, or Wrexham and Whitstable

I get your point and have to say I really dontcare for it. Your poiint is that because you feel uncomfortable with what you arent used to then it is the fault of other people. Its not a fault with them but rather with you. Why do *you* feel uncomfortable?

one love

Hello Blicky,

I assume that was a prepared post - not related to my last one acknowledging the points Ed Effers and you have made?

Novo

>>Because the more fundamentalists in Islam aappear to be so against such integration that I have concerns that a group which effectively closes itself from the host population will never truly mix and create a society in which we can all benefit from each other.

And what proportion of the British Asian population constitute? Surely that's a little like judging the indigenous population according to certain members of the CofE synod? To choose a topical example.

Look...all communities are (by and large) desperate to integrate, to gain for themselves and their children social and economic circumstances. Why wouldn't they? Talk to people and this is what they'll tell you.

But integration is a two way street. Do *we* make the effort? Do we go and talk to people, visit their shops to see what unusual foods they have to offer? (btw...anyone currently missing out on the Pakistani mango season, currently in full flow, is a damned fool. )

Oops simulpost.

Well what are the differences between West Indian and most African origin black ethnic minority people in this country and Asian/Indian ethnic minorities.

Well loads.

W.I. are different to African, W.I. immigrants are genrally poorer there Britain strpped the people of all wealth in fact at one time all the people were owned as wealth, but language and religion were also forceably stripped away, this has in one way helped intergration. In others ways its hapered it we W.I. descedants of slaves can suffer a feeling of worthlessness that has been transmitted down the generation like an accent gets passed on.

African people come here sometimes out of free choice other times out of a refugee nescessity and its not fair to talk about what I dont know much about. So I'll leave it there except to say that there is a mixed bag of languages and cultures that make it hard to pin anything much down interms of how easy or hard it is in terms of intergration.

Sihks and Hindus intergrate much better than Muslims for one main reason the Raj. Britain worked with the Hidus and Sihks and not so well with the Muslims and gave them a rougher ride. This also adds in witht eh centuries long wars between Muslims in and around the Mediterranean regions. Plus there are all the language difficulties.


Shortly SWL will be along to prattle on about how long gone incidents should be forgotten and worked past and I agree the fact is not many people can do this. If you want proof interogate your own memory for how peope who have never raised a fist against and never been threatened by our near European neighbours the French and Germans but somehow still manage to hold some kind of Grudge over conflicts long gone.

Hi Ed,

Yes I Do,

My local Londis is run by a large family, I don't know their religion, I haven't asked - it isn't important.

I also by my daily paper from two islamic girls who run the shop. and with whom I have long running jokes about what is 'bling' etc.

So yes, in small ways I do try....

Novo

Good on ya. This is how tiny revolutions are made.

And *do* buy some mangos while they're still in season. The kind in boxes, with tinsel.

Morning Edward,

I will if I can find any on todays market!

BTW, today's 'tear off' calendar quote - " Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values" - fairly apposite!

Novo

It's not the loose mangos you're after. It's the ones packed in fives or sixes in boxes. With tinsel. Be sure and ask your local stall/shop keeper which ones are good. Some will be ripening up, some ready to eat, some fit for milkshake.

Best way to eat them? In a shower. With a close friend.