h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi All,
Recently, there was a big marketting campaign here in the UK hailing Maestro debit cards as "the new cash" - despite them being neither new (Switch - which recently merged with Maestro - was launched in 1988; Visa Delta dates from 1987) nor a sensible replacement for many uses of cash.

Now MasterCard and Visa are rolling out new "contactless payments" (branded 'PayPass' and 'payWave') where you won't even need a PIN to buy something for under £10 - like, say, a newspaper.



All of which makes me wonder:
1) Are we anywhere near becoming a "cashless society"?
2) Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?



My own opinions, fairly briefly, are:
1) Not at all. Debit cards, and even more-so charge cards like the Dutch Chip-Knip (where you put money onto the card, so using it doesn't require checking with your bank, and losing it is only like losing the notes in your wallet) can certainly occupy niches more generally associated with cash (and cheques).

But there are a whole host of transactions where individuals need to be able to move money around without a "merchant" present, requiring "cards" (e-wallets?) significantly smarter than anything we've got so far - how else do you lend someone a fiver, or offer to pay for a round of drinks as long as someone else queues and fetches them?

And even with that in place, cash would surely be the best or only option for things like busking, charity buckets, fruit machines, children's pocket money, splitting a restaurant bill, jumble sales, good old-fashioned tips...


As for 2) I'm less certain - my friend (*waves*) pointed out the passage in A Hand-maid's Tale where women are instantly locked out of the economy by having access to their electronic cash removed. But surely this would only work if the regime in question could also effectively stamp out the black market - in which case, even keeping all your money under the mattress would be an ultimately futile precaution, as they'd still stop you spending it. And besides, it's not as if the value of coins and notes is actually in our individual control anyway... (see <./>T4556293</.&gt

Any thoughts?
[IMSoP]

The future is now.

I think one of the big points is always going to be that cash, notes and coins is often a lot less hastle than any alternatives I can think of, and that you mention. Popping to the shop to buy a newspaper, you'll pick up a couple of pound coins or a note, not take the entire purse/wallet with all its money, so in some ways it can even be less of a risk, in terms of theft etc to rely more on cash. Also, having actual 'money' in your wallet, at least you can see how much exactly you ahve at any given time, I gues with the cards and pre paid cards etc., you'll need to put them into some kind of 'reader' to see what credit they have on htem.... AS I guess it won't be every single shop in every single town who can 'regarge' up the cards, again its often easier just to carry the cash I got so many problems using my meistro/switch a few years back that I've not used it since (it kept being rejected for no reason, or reasons such as 'it was an unusual transaction' ), in the end for larger things I've not got the cash for I use a credit card set up with a directdebit to pay off the entire balance each month Also, I guess as you have to put money on to the pre paid card, where would that money come from; cash... so why not just keep the cash and use that

"Also, I guess as you have to put money on to the pre paid card, where would that money come from; cash... so why not just keep the cash and use that"

The way the Dutch ones work (I believe) is that you charge them up at special machines attached to banks; so basically, you're loading them with money out of your bank account, instead of taking that money out of the cash machine.

Of course, that does mean that you could just as easily get the cash out at that stage, but a charge card is at least potentially more secure than cash, because bigger payments could require a PIN, and you could get it cancelled at the bank and perhaps even get the balance back, which obviously you couldn't with a wallet-ful of cash...

I've got up to £1000 insurance for money on my person; came with the house contents insurance I still think for small transactions; Which lets face it most* are; a loaf of bread, pint of beer, packet of cigarettes, couple of pounds on a short bus journey, it just seems simpler to do it with cash. One of the problems this will face, as with anything of its nature, is how long it will take to reach 'critical saturation' in terms of having enough shops, pubs, bars, resturants, etc., able to take the cards, whilst its first out I guess there won't be huge* take up amongst shops and such like, so there will still be times when you will need cash as the small shop, or whatever, isn't able to take the cards.... Could see it as handy though; getting a card and charging it up with twenty pounds, and putting it deep in my wallet, as a kind of emergency fund Mind, I tend to prefer cash as I get paid cash by lodger so it saves my having to go use the bank or cash machine anyhow most of the time

Even if we eliminate coins & notes for all formal transactions, some form of tokens would probably arise for other trading.

I believe there are a considerable number of areas that trade in material items or skills. http://www.letslinkuk.net/

LETs are a pain. I participated in one on Arran for about 3 years. We traded in Rowans and had cheque books. People could make things, sell them for Rowans and use the Rowans to buy goods or services off others. Fine in theory, but in practice those with goods or services in demand ended up with a huge Rowan surplus. I had a surfeit of Rowans and a hatred of vegetarian food, so there was little to spend them on (it's mostly hippies that use LETs)

There were some good things. We had a dentist who would take part-payment in Rowans and a mechanic that would do the same. I would take cash to cover the cost of materials and Rowans for my labour & time.

For LETs to work, there needs to be a critical mass of participants. But it isn't really a cashless system. You're just substituting one nominal currency for another.

Cash will never disappear. It may very likely be made illegal, but it will never disappear.

Consider: all so far proposed forms of exchange to "replace" cash give the vendor and the bank information about you - information they could be forced under law to hand over to police, tax inspectors, benefit departments, etc.

If I pay for something with my debit card, the bank knows where I was, at what time, how much I spent, on precisely what. Over the course of a week, they could build up a pretty good profile on me. If I only buy petrol with a debit card, they could even, knowing what kind of car I have, make a reasonable stab at how far I've driven each week.

If I take ten pounds out of the bank, they have NO IDEA where that ten pounds ends up. If I pay cash for petrol, they have NO IDEA how much petrol I buy. If I pay a plumber in cash, there is no electronic, traceable record of that transaction. It might never have happened... If I GET paid in cash for doing some job or other, ditto. The taxman or benefit office could not find out, except by other, much more labour intensive means than asking my bank (e.g. surveillance). If I get paid in cash for my whole income, the bank might never know what that income even is.

Cash = anonymity, untraceability. This is good for the individual, bad for governments. We are sleepwalking towards a cashless society, but I don't think we'll ever get there.

SoRB

Indeed, there are still people who don't have a bank account and deal entirely in cash.

Completely agree with SoRB. I tend towards using my card for the convenience, but as I get more and more worried about the level of surveillance we're subject to I become more and more tempted to use cash only. As a start, I only ever top up my oyster card card with cash.

"Indeed, there are still people who don't have a bank account and deal entirely in cash."

Such as the chap who is now Taioseach (Prime Minister). He has a bank account now, but he didn't when he was Minister for Finance.

TRiG.

There is also the issue of anyone who doesn't have a bank account - the homeless springs to mind.

Doubtless the government will bring out the old security ploy - without a card they won't be able to exsist in our society, etc.

There is the Hand-maidens issue, but suppose it was BNP voters, or union members, that were excluded.

There are also all the people who can't get a bank account. To get a currant account nowadays you have to pass a credit check - if you fail they will only give you a debit type account, where you get a card that can't go overdrawn and which half the places won't accept.

With one stroke you could dis-enfranchise a vast tract of society.

Then there are holiday makers. the tourist industry might benefit from a few geeks rabidly interested in gonig to a country where they get to wave a card over a reader to pay for stuff but when some people travel abroad tehy are confused enough by a differnt looking bunchof notes let alone a totally different system.

How could you give someone £20 to pick you up a crateof lager while they were out at the supermarket?

How would parents give their children their pocket money or let them keep the change gor gonig to the shop?

How cuold it work?


We can lal think of why it wouldnt work, but I remember people looking at the old (iirc) one2one "pay as you go" adverts with a mobile phone that a pay slot on the back in total confusion. Before that I remember people thinking that a day when children would have their own personal phones with their own telephone number seemed impossible and rediculous.

paypal.

I only use cash except for when I'm shopping on the internet which I don't do often.

Quote; The future is now.





I agree, from Amsterdam

Oh dear not again. Anyone remember Mondex?

Nope.

Back in the mid 90s I was living in Swindon, not much to write home about apart from the 'worlds first trial of smart cash' - mondex. Dreamed up by a couple of banks and a telecoms/it provider.
A smartcard could be loaded with cash and then used at various places in town, big shops, small shops. You had a small reader to check how much you had. I don't think I ever saw many people using the system.
The trial must have done OK as the consortium sold mondex to Mastercard

As others have said cash is easy and anonymous.

I remember Mondex... but I wouldn't say the trial went *that* well since we're not all using it now.