h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Rather nonplussed that the current round of bomb attacks is not being discussed here. Is everyone too shy?
The most recent events have once again shown that the terrorists are not poor disadvantaged people but wealthy, educated and priviledged. What motivates such people and what sensible steps can be taken to restore normality? The new Prime Minister seems to be downplaying the threat. This seems sensible but does this act as a spur to the terrorists to be more outrageous?

>>What motivates such people and what sensible steps can be taken to restore normality?<<

Withdraw from Iraq. Stop supporting Bush's foreign policy. Fire Blair from his new Middle East job. Talk to Islamic moderates about how the West can have a just relationship with the rest of the world. Stop treating poorer nations as slavebots needed to support Western lifestyles.

Seriously, anything short of those things is just rearranging deckchairs.

I entirely agree with your remarks that the events are not being discussed. I was equally surprised that the McCann story attracted no posts.

Both distressing, both difficult to form opinions upon, though I think Kea's analysis of required action is right.

Somehow though it reflects the paucity of serious dicussion on the Forum of late. OK, if you want to get involved with religious or moral arguments then you can visit one particular thread. Other than that it seems largely to consist of point scoring.

Novo

kea's post covers the generally accepted liberal view on the issue.
However, to posit a different view on the matter, this link goes to the guardian's comment is free section and an article by a bloke who has an inside view on the motives of such groups. Worth reading.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2115891,00.html

I think there will always be extremists. That's a fact. We just have to deal with them the best we can. I reckon Kea's about right. I think a certain amount of humility is required by the West in understanding that it's not just their world, and they can't rule it.

What I find very interesting is that the people the police are questioning seem to be from a completely different demographic grouping than where previous 'terrorists' have been recruited...

Young doctors, qualified from various medical schools in the post-iraq invasion era...

We can't seem to blame their actions on their being disillusioned by a UK-based 'underculture' and racism in this country... Rather, if the people currently being questioned are indeed involved, it rather seems to point to the possibility of a long-term plan, getting youngsters into 'trusted' positions within our country.

There's not an awful lot we can do about terrorism really, but fortunately we don't NEED to take any extreme action. The number of dead due to terrorism is minute in comparison to almost every other danger - comparable to the number of people who are killed by drowning in bathtubs or hit by lightning. The recent attempted attacks illustrate this well. We don't have much to fear from such bungling idiots. The things kea suggested are good ideas not as a reaction to terrorism, but simply because it's the way we ought to behave.

While I broadly agree with kea. I dont think the West, the *voting* majority and its governments, will agree with taking that course of action because they dont see anything wrong with what they have done. Or that if there was ever anything wrong done by their nations' in the past or even now they dont feel that they should be held accountable for it. Just look at peoples' reactions on here to talk about reparations over the "Triangle trade" in slaves and most recetly Bush's treatment of "Scooter Libby".



I think Numbnuts displays a lot of the thinking that is holding sway in the West at present look at the language he uses.

"Rather nonplussed that the current round of bomb attacks
is not being discussed here. Is everyone too shy?

He is suggesting we are too scared to say things that have already beeen said over and over on this issue.

The most recent events have once again shown that the
terrorists are not poor disadvantaged people but wealthy,
educated and priviledged.

"the" terrorists not these terrorists, not the actual ones responsible for in the exact same way that people who encourage terrorists of this sort to view the West its people and anyone who has friendly links with us is one lumpen mass of enimity Numbnuts tries to slip past us the lie that these few terosists are the template by which all terrorits are drawn.

"What motivates such people and what sensible steps can
be taken to restore normality? The new Prime Minister
seems to be downplaying the threat. This seems sensible
but does this act as a spur to the terrorists to be more
outrageous?

"What motivates such people

Is he honestly asking that question...you know I think he is and that is a massive problem or put another way a big part of the problem he is taling about.

"what sensible steps can be taken to restore normality?

A big part of the problem for the West is that some people think that normality is the Western governments doind what the hell they like and the rest of the world bending over backwards not to offend the people who have come to live off the wealth of the natural resources and labour of the people working for poor wages.

"The new Prime Minister seems to be downplaying the
threat. This seems sensible but does this act as a
spur to the terrorists to be more outrageous?

I think it does in one way but the West's reactions thus far have only served to fan the flames anyway. What's needed is a new approach but the new approach, which includes a lot of the things kea mentioned, has always looked unpopular and I dont see that chaning anytime soon.



Novo said:
"I was equally surprised that the McCann story attracted no posts.

Thing was it has been mentioned but it did not get its own thread. Why should it have? The only remarkable feature of this event is the susequent relationship between the parents and the media.


"We can't seem to blame their actions on their being
disillusioned by a UK-based 'underculture' and racism
in this country

Well Whisky, ask yourself why Novo gives a hoot about Madeline McCann or why thousands of people bought those little wrist bands or why football stadia full fans held moments of reflection. People can have invisible ties across continenets regardless of how much they are physically affected by each others' different life experiences. Just because we can easily find people in this country who dont care about the insistent racism some people here have to put up with doesnt mean others far away might not be motivated by it.

Nelson Mandela was not the poorest of the poor he was a tribal cheif. Che Guvera was a medical student. Tony Benn gave up his title. Just because someone is doing relatively well doent mean they dont have empathy for others and arent willing to fight what they see as injustices.

Will we one day see people wearing bin Laden Tshirts or venerating Omar Bakri Mohammed as a great statesman. Remeber right now in Ireland there are people previously convicted of terrorist attacks who are part of the peace process.

one love

I was thinking too of the middle class priviledged people I know who hate what the West does.


*

Icotan, thanks for that link, it's interesting stuff. I want to clarify that I don't see the issue as simplistic as "unjust foreign policy creates terrorists". One of the things I think about the UK is that it's the foreign policy that gets in the way of moderate Muslims challenging radical theology. It's not uncommon for people to side with their own especially across ethnic divides and where the people as a whole feel unjustly treated. Racism too I imagine would make many Muslims at least remain silent in the face of extremism rather than fighting it. Islamic terrorist might be wrong in their theology and means, but they are right about the West being corrupt.

And like Dogster, I believe that we should be doing the things I suggested simply because they are just. As long as we relate with the world in an unjust manner, it is incredibly hard to see solutions, or have any crediblity. The only thing we have going for us I think is force, and we won't be the top of the pile forever.


From that link:

>>>
I believe that the issue of terrorism can be easily demystified if Muslims and non-Muslims start openly to discuss the ideas that fuel terrorism.
<<<

My point was that the West is engaged in terrorism. So I agree with this man's point - in order to demystify terrorism we have to look at our own ideas that fuel terrorism. Bush is without doubt a terrorist in my mind. So is John Howard. I don't know enough about Blair - someone else can comment on that - but I have no doubt that you have terrorists in your government as do I.

It seems unlikely that people who are aggressively violent can create peace. The choice we have is either to challenge our own behaviour first, or agree that we will live in an increasingly violent world and try and control violence against us while we still have the upper hand (a very short sighted approach IMO).

I love how you make this into being about the US instantly kea.

Glad to be of service Arnie. You must have missed the references to Australia and the UK though.

Or are you only concerned when my critique is of the US, the other places don't matter?

Hi Arnie,

Quite apart from our recent exchanges elsewhere, isn't rather deeply about the US ? And the UK come to that?

The US was complicit in the creation of the State Of Israel, and the subsequent support ( tacit maybe )of the expansion following the '67 war.

The US was implicit in the first and second attacks on Iraq. Whilst the first may have been 'justified' after Iraq attacked Kuwait, the second has an extremely dubious validity.

Imagine that you are a young man trying to put a life together in The Gaza Strip, or in Iraq, what would you feel when some fudamentalist points out the huge injustice perpertrated by those with infinite weapons and infinite money ( relatively)

The actions of the US AND it's allies must surely creat a receptive mindset?

Novo

While I agree with most of what's been said and suggested here, I do wonder about the wisdom of withdrawing from Iraq.

I mean, I sincerely wish the war hadn't happened, and don't think much good has come of it, but I remain to be convinced whether just leaving now - getting "our boys" out of danger, and leaving "the locals" to it - would actually do any good either. Maybe it would, but if it just allowed the local Islamist gangs to carve up the country between them, that's not exactly going to do wonders for world peace, let alone the ordinary civilians who are trying to get on with their lives...

Oh, and I must say it's an interesting thought in one of the comments on that Guardian piece that Islam needs something akin to a Reformation. I mean, preferably without the centuries of religio-political wars that Christianity had, but a clear line allowing people to subscribe, vociferously, to a kind of "Modern Liberal Islam" or whatever might make integration a little easier...?

[IMSoP]

"preferably without the centuries of religio-political wars that Christianity had"

I agree, but is this really possible? I suspect it isn't. I suspect you need the violence and wars so that which ever side loses knows it has lost and so does everyone else.

Regards the situation in Iraq, I tend to think that we have made this mess, and it is our obligation to help the Iraqis clear it up for as long as they want us. The problem with that is whether British troops are needed depends on who you talk to in Iraq.

The attitudes of Muslims throughout the world have certainly been exacerbated by Bush and Blair's policies, especially the 'let's get rid of Saddam even though we installed him in the first place before he discharges these WMDs he hasn't got' nightmare.

*But*, in no way does this excuse a single attack on a civilian anywhere in the world by any Muslim. Nor does it completely explain the radicalisation of Muslims. Part of the Us vs Them mentality is inherent in Islam (not just Islam, but that doesn't make this untrue) and, over the past century, nefarious elements within the religion have brought this mindset to the fore. But as the guy in the link said, Muslims can't expect to retreat to the Middle Ages - they need to work out how to live in what he calls the Land of Co-Existence, for all our sakes.

Of course it's a two way think. But I think it's a wise course of action to concentrate on what *we* can do. This year's Reith Lecturer often referenced a speech by President Kennedy in which he called on his own people to improve relations between the US and the Soviet Union. A few weeks later the two sides were talking as they had never done.

kea, novo, I just don't subscribe to your theory that if a butterfly sneezes in China it's the fault of the US.

not to equate the recent events with a "butterfly sneezing" - not at all. Evidence suggests that the kea-novo theory lays the fault of everything in the world at the US.