h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Using hootoo as an example is poor. Do a google search of "mohammed cartoon" and click on images. Now do you see zero cartoons/images?

Yup. Note the opening post:

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I didn't say we currently are, I asked if were in danger of becoming one.

Bear in mind at a time when govt is increasingly observing the public and compiling information, they conveniently exempted themselves from the Freedom Of Information Act.

So many changes to the law ostensibly justified by the War on Terror yet, as has been argued on this board, the threat comes from a vanishing minority of a minority.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

Simulpost Arnie -

Yeah, I can find Mohammed images on the net. I can find all manner of images on the net - does that make them legal? In fact there is increasing concern at government monitoring of the internet.

Publish a Mohammed cartoon in the mainstream media and expect to be prosecuted.

In reply to your question about ID cards Dogster in post 20. I think there is just too much hostility to the concept of ID cards here. They'd have to make it so that it was virtually impossible to function without one and I think people would rebel. I maybe wrong though I know. In many ways I'm actually re-assurred that they could never make the 'Child support' thing work. Tracing fathers to pay for the upkeep of offspring, and as I mentioned earlier they were never able to make the ID card thing work with just one section of society, football supporters. We have an incredibly permanently mobile and pluralistic society. If there are supposedly many immigrants quite able to funtion without being registered, not to mention homeless people, I can forsee the proper implementaion of ID cards turning into something unworkable. Another bureaucratic nightmare that Maggie could never make work was the poll tax, as much because of the 'dissapearing act' that so many people suddenlty managed.

I have a certain, though some may say irrational, trust in the natural bolshiness of Brits when it comes to certain things that go too far against our traditions of freedom and fairness.

Pardon me to pop in with such a useless post, but what is the meaning of the subject line reference to "an invisible sun"? (And while I'm at it, what does "SWL" mean?)

Fanny, I think that's why they're introducing them slowly so that there isn't a poll-tax-like opposition to them. First introduce them so that you hardly need them for anything, and gradually increase the number of things you need to have it for. I agree that it wouldn't "work" for its intended goals (eliminating fraud and illegal working), but it could certainly cause a hell of a lot of difficulties for a lot of people. It also makes a lot of undemocratic things that a future government might want to do a lot easier.

"Publish a Mohammed cartoon in the mainstream media and expect to be prosecuted."

Well that's funny, because as far as I know the only law under which you could be would be the blasphemy law, which is not new.

Inciting religious hatred? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3871867.stm SWL - http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/F2264199?thread=2595668 "There has to be an invisible sun" is a reference to the Police song, "I dont want to spend my time in hell Looking at the walls of a prison cell I dont ever want to play the part Of a statistic on a government chart There has to be an invisible sun It gives its heat to everyone There has to be an invisible sun That gives us hope when the whole days done"

Thank you

Did you forget that opponents to the incitement to religious hatred law forced an amendment specifically to ensure that you would be allowed to take to the ?

SWL, can you provide any examples of these prosecutions?

As another example of freedoms being eroded there is the growing dna database, this now holds the samples of 10,000 children.

The old adage that you have nothing to fear if you're innocent assumes an unchanging future. Suppose you become politically active in a party that becomes outlawed ? Not too remote a possibility when people can be sacked for being in the BNP - I don't recall anyone being sacked for being a Marxist.

We have abrogated responsibility to the European Court of Justice for control of our laws - and their concepts of freedom do not match ours.

Having read your opening post I felt that it was relevant to mention that Bremner did a rather good cartoon on the Culture Show a few hours ago that mentioned human rights. I believe the Culture Show website has a downloadable version of the cartoon.

To top things off I'm now watching the film Soylent Green.

"As another example of freedoms being eroded there is the growing dna database, this now holds the samples of 10,000 children."

I don't see how the state having a record of your DNA erodes your freedom, it's more an invasion of privacy issue. All DNA databases are good for is for use in prosecution cases where they can be used to help clarify evidence proving the guilt (or innocence) of a particular party. You can't really use them for oppression per se. You'd have to change laws first to make day-to-day activities legal and then use a citizens DNA to convict them of those laws. Bona fide totalitarians, though, don't tend to bother with courts and trials and so would have no practical use for a DNA database.

"The old adage that you have nothing to fear if you're innocent assumes an unchanging future. Suppose you become politically active in a party that becomes outlawed ? Not too remote a possibility when people can be sacked for being in the BNP - I don't recall anyone being sacked for being a Marxist."

The BNP is a legal political party. It's not banned. The sacking issue comes from laws that ensure racial-equality in the workplace and these directly conflict with someone being the member of an openly racist party. If someone continued to employ someone who was a member of the BNP then they could arguably be prosecuted under race relations laws and so said someone is sacked. It's oppression of sorts but it's not the same as banning a political party.

"We have abrogated responsibility to the European Court of Justice for control of our laws - and their concepts of freedom do not match ours"

In what way?

"You'd have to change laws first to make day-to-day activities illegal and then use a citizens DNA to convict them under those laws"

As it should have read.

The number of CCTV cameras that are popping up everywhere you won't need DNA evidence. A good pic of them doing it is enough grounds to convict a person.

My street recently had a CCTV camera installed to keep an eye on a specific region of the road where gangs usually meet up. Barely days after this, the camera was replaced with a state-of-the-art 360 degree camera on a mast long enough to look in my 4th floor windows.

Now, I don't mind CCTV systems in public. It's becoming more of a worry due to the number of them, but I believe that ultimately some good must come out of it. I don't mind having a little bit of my everyday privacy removed if it means that a drug-dealer selling to kids is caught. But having CCTV cameras capable of looking into my house? I think this is crossing the mark just a little.

<<"Bona fide totalitarians, though, don't tend to bother with courts and trials and so would have no practical use for a DNA database.">>

Rather a lack of imagination there I think...

Zagreb - > "I don't see how the state having a record of your DNA erodes your freedom, it's more an invasion of privacy issue. "

Well - lets suppose that it was determined that susceptability to HN51 was determined by a genetic factor - and there were limited supplies of the anti-virus ? How would they choose the recipients ?

You may argue that this would mean the donors could be chosen by age, to get most value from it - but lets suppose that they were chosen by politcal affiliation ? Impossible - I'd like to think so, but this government's obsession with legislation scares me.

I see Mr Brown has announced he is to return to the extension of suspension of Habeus Corpus for 'terror' suspects. Why is that ?

I also see he has changed his mind about phone-taps being allowed in court. Well I'm in favour of that - what's the point of phone taps if you can't use them ? However I'm against being being allowed to tap your phone without supporting evidence of a crime being committed.

And "We have abrogated responsibility to the European Court of Justice for control of our laws - and their concepts of freedom do not match ours"

In what way?

The first thing that comes to mind is the example of locking people up without trial - in this country we just say no - but the HRA view is that if the government thinks its justified then its OK.

Also in the way of individual liberties - European courts attempt to define these in law to prevent their being taken away - however like freedom of speech, once you try to define it - you limit it. In English Law 'reasonable' is a valid expression, not so in European work-place regulations.

Don't think that I'm against controls in society, I believe that corporations control too much of our lives, and think rights should be rights - not something you have to apply for.

"The number of CCTV cameras that are popping up everywhere you won't need DNA evidence. A good pic of them doing it is enough grounds to convict a person."

CCTV is ineffective and CCTV images are rarely used as evidence because the quality is so rarely good enough. They are effectively used as deterrents* and as a means for CCTV operators to identify trouble and alert the authorities.

*A friend of mine's parents were encouraged by the police to set up a private CCTV camera near to their car which was frequently vandalised. They once caught a drunk coming home from the nearby pub smashing the windows and promptly delivered the film to the police as evidence for prosecution. The police said that the film was inadmissable as evidence and admitted that the CCTV was supposed to "deter" vandals and was in fact essentially useless.