h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Peers suggest closing womens prisons in favour of smaller secure units.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6444961.stm

"women should be held in units near their families and not in large jails like the one in Holloway, London.

If adopted by the home secretary, Baroness Corston's approach would see Holloway and about 14 other all-female prisons in England and Wales shut down or converted into jails for men.

Frances Crook, director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said "prison simply doesn't work" for women."

So much for equality. What does this say? that men do not need to be by their families? That women are mentally weaker than men and have to have 'special' treatment as they can't learn their lessons in a proper jail to suit their crimes.

Are women too stupid to associate the fact that if you don't want to be punished and have your liberty taken away and kept in basic conditions DON'T BREAK THE LAW!! - I believe this is basically what the report is saying.

Just stick men in prisons and make them do their time but let women be housed in cushy secure units where their female sensitivities can be catered for.

Discuss...

As far as I'm aware there is a significant difference in the types of crimes committed by men and women. I could be wrong, but I believe that a significant number of women prisoners are there for non-payment of television licences.

Equality is more than just treating everyone the same.

I'd wonder how many repeat women offenders there are, or how many women have been through various non-custodial programmes before ending up in prison. Even if there was a more 'family friendly' system, there would presumably still be the need for prisons for some women - the ones who carry on offending, or the more serious offenders.

I understand that many *men* in prison have mental health problems, histories of abuse, drugs issues, limited intelligence and/or education, etc.

Well, apart from rape(though women can technically rape men) and indecent exposure(women can not be done for that no matter how ugly they are) is there any real difference between what crime a woman *could* do and a crime a man *could* do.

I could be wrong, but I believe that a significant number of women prisoners are there for non-payment of television licences.

Equality is more than just treating everyone the same.>

The 'time' should fit the crime. Equality *should* exactly be treating everyone the same.

For low level crimes, yes, secure units night be better but for crimes equivalent in violence etc then they should be in a 'normal jail like a man would be.

Also, if secure units do come in men should be put inot them as well for comitting the same crimes as the women in the secure units.

"I could be wrong, but I believe that a significant number of women prisoners are there for non-payment of television licences."

A very old and _very_ incorrect urban legend...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/foi/docs/freedom_of_information/selected_requests_and_responses/2006/SR2006000375_TV_Licence_Prosecutions.pdf

In brief... in response to an FOI request

-------------------------------
Q - "the total number during the past five years who have received a custodial sentence for the non-payment of a Television Licence"

A - (abridged) Please not that custodial sentences are for non-payment of a fine due to be paid to a court following a conviction for a licencing-related offence rather than for non-payment of the licence itself

*** otherwise said, the people went to court, got a fine for not paying their licence, and then refused to pay that fine ***

The following number of people have received custodial sentences for non-payment of fines issued for TV licencing offences:

2000 - 30
2001 - 14
2002 - 20
2003 - 17
2004 - 28

---------------------

I'd hardly the female proportion of the couple of dozen prisoners (of both sexes) imprisoned for non-payment of fines a "significant number"

And as for the "significant difference in the types of crimes committed by men and women", would you have any information to back that up? or is it purely conjecture on your part?

"Women tend to commit less crime and their offences are generally less serious. In 2004, 36% of sentenced women had committed drugs offences; 17% were convicted of violence against the person; with theft & handling, robbery" (something missing I guess...)

From HM Prison Service website. Which also quotes that females make up about 5% of the total prison population, and points out that the small number of women's prisons means that women tend to be further from their families than men.

The Home Office 2001 report gives the top types of crime for men as Violence (22%), burglary (17%) and drug offences (16%), with the top 3 for women as drugs (40%), violence (16%) and theft/handling (15%)

Thanks for the correction on the TV licence "legend".

Surely the point of prison is that you are taken away from your friends and family as part of the punishment for breaking the law.

And I do believe that if a woman commits the same crime as a man, she should suffer the same punishment. Differences in overall rates of different crimes comitted by men and women as wholes are irrelevant - if you commit a crime, you should pay the prescribed price regardless of sex.

Thanks for the figures.

My conclusion now is still...stuff 'em all the above crimes should require jail especially if its pushing drugs. Taking drugs...hmmmm...but they will get help.

If they are further from their families it will be a good deterent for them NOT to break the law again.

"If they are further from their families it will be a good deterent for them NOT to break the law again."

I may well be wrong and this oculd have been a dream. But isn't there a direct correlation between the distasnce a prisnor is form home and family and the likelehood that they re-offend. Hence the reason why the prison authorities try to put people near home wherever possible.

the whole point is that women are often put in prison for crimes that men, were they to have comitted the same crime, would not go to prison for.

As for "being away from your family is part of the punishment" - since when was punishing kids (often very young) part of a sentence? Often when women go to prison, even for a short time, the children end up in "care" and their lives are blighted in more ways than one.

That is not equality.

All prisoners should be imprisoned near to their families. sure, Prison is punishment,but the families don't have to be punished too.

>>>the whole point is that women are often put in prison for crimes that men, were they to have comitted the same crime, would not go to prison for.

I'm not sure you can assume that from the statistics we've seen.

I'm not assuming,but it is one of the reasons that initiatives like this are started.

To me, too many people go to prison full stop. And far too many people are in prisons too far away from their families. That's something I'd like to see addressed.

I think there's a stronger case to be made saying that women often get left "holding the baby", so to speak. When household debts rise and the man of the house does a runner from the creditors, the woman often can't run due to having to care for children. Debt collection agencies have an easier time tracking down women than men.

Why not? When the mother, wife whatever gets out of prison the family might actually try and stop the idiot committing anymore crimes. Surely, where they have been imprisoned for theft the rest of the family must have known and were complicit?

Life isn't fair. Don't blame the justice system blame the person who broke the law

sorry, Whisky, what I meant was

I'm not really assuming. Every article I've read in a serious paper about this (Independent and Guardian) seems to point to he fact that women are apparently sent to prison far more than men for less serious crimes - and often the implication is that men doing the same thing wouldn't go to prison.

But then, do women and men commit the same crimes?

sorry, it makes me really mad. We have a society that is putting the blame for badly behaved children and teenagers partly on the high instance of absent fathers. And yes, if someone commits a crime it is bad and they have to be punished.

But why are they committing the crimes? and how exactly are small children supposed to stop them? And often these families are poor - how are they supposed to afford to visit?

I'm often quite surprised at the lack of compassion here on h2g2.

(and, for the record, I'm not a con or an ex-con nor is anyone in my immediate or extended family, or circle of friends)

Violence and theft are not victimless crimes. I am full of compassion for the people whom these crimes were perpetrated against. I am also aware of the social deprivation caused by crap government over the decades and the problems there involved...however...once we get proper compensation and justice for the victims then I might get a bit more compassion for the perpetrators.

Do men and women commit the same crimes? I don't know, but one thing I could imagine is that men are more likely to resort to physical violence whilst committing another crime.

(and this is all horrible generalisation and assumption )

Imagine two scenarios, a woman committing burglary gets discovered by a man, the most likely scenario is she's going to prison for the burglary...

Now, if a man is discovered, there's a higher probability he'll try to fight his way out of the situation (ain't testosterone a wonderful thing ) - so, if and when he gets caught there's a crime of violence on his record in addition to the burglary...

So, both deserve to go to prison (another generalised assumption) but one might well appear under the 'violent' crime statistics while the other appears under 'theft'.

"When the mother, wife whatever gets out of prison the family might actually try and stop the idiot committing any more crimes."

A grand theory, but people don't actually work like that most of the time. Read more fiction. It's often more educational than fact.

TRiG.

<"When the mother, wife whatever gets out of prison the family might actually try and stop the idiot committing any more crimes."

A grand theory, but people don't actually work like that most of the time. >

Of course it doesn't work as the idiots will have brought the kids up to be idiots as well.