h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Where are those quotes from? Particularly the one about anti-semitism bieng driven by the left.

No, I didn't think you read the link first time round.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1278580,00.html

Sorry I missed that stuff at the bottom. Just re-reading it now.

But to counter:-

"after a synagogue attached to the Aish HaTorah Jewish educational network in Hendon was set on fire last month. Police are not linking the Hendon and Tottenham attacks to Muslim groups"

And of the examples listed in the article at the bottom I counted 6 of the paragraphs which did not specifically link Muslims with the rise in violence.

The truth is there is nothing in that article that provides anything other than anecdotal evidence as the the likely makeup of those carrying out anti semitic attacks.

I again say that it is just as likely that the increase can be ascribed to the far right, as the rise in the islamic population. (Though in truth it is probably a bit of both).

There can only ever be anecdotal evidence until such time as figures are compiled, as I stated back at the start of the thread. They have only just started examining the ethnicity or religion of the victim, but that only gives a partial picture leading to circular discussions like the one we're having. We need data on the ethnicity of the attackers.

If such data were available that showed 90% of attacks were by white racists, then I would have no argument. But we don't have this data. Instead we have Jews here and in Europe anecdotally telling us that they are inreasingly coming under attack by Muslims.

Wow you have found racists within an Abrahamic religion: stop the presses.

This sentiment amongst some Muslims does no more to prove that the rise in anti-semitic attacks are due to the increase in the Muslim population of Europe than does the existance of Eugene Terblanche prove that all white christian people are members of the KKK.

Sorry but you still dont have a link based on any actual doncumented evidence.

Some information on this subject

http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,,1928601,00.html

"Fahy also warned of caution in over-interpreting the figures. He said that the 24 white victims also included those who were Jewish, 'dark-skinned' Europeans or gypsies. In addition, seven of those were killed by white attackers, four by black, six by Asian, with seven whose racial background was not identified.

Police have suggested that some white-on-white killings may be a result of attacks between Scots, English, Irish and Welsh people.

Overall, there have been 10 black victims and 16 Asian victims. Of the 58 race murders, 18 have been where a white attacker has killed a black or Asian individual and another 14 where one member of a minority group has murdered another for racial reasons.

Some opinion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,,1975742,00.html

Obviously I wouldn't go the whole hog like SWL does (wouldn't be focusing on Islam for this one either), but it does seem to me that there is a seed of truth in this point. The UK has been forced to deal with its most blatant outburts of racism. As has anywhere touched by WWII, by massive immigration and by race riots. The media here is frankly obsessed by Hitler.

Many other countries haven't been pushed into that, and as such you might expect immigrants from those places to be more likely to be racist. The spewing of vitriol against Judaism by Islamic clerics is one example, as is Islamic-Hindu gang warfare. But there are others: ex-Soviet Europe does not appear to have been effectively purged of anti-Semitism compared to the massive re-education programs which took place in the wealthier, more free parts.

I would rather be challenging such views than challenging the movement of people itself though. I think I might be able to do both. In the end, the problem remains a problem for someone whether it stays abroad or comes here looking for work.

And of course, the idea that criticism of Israel is automatically anti-semitic is wrong. I do not think that the left-wing is motivated by anti-semitism. Accusations of anti-Americanism might have some grounding.

I have a good Glaswegian friend who has explained to me some of the politics that go on in Glasgow. He told me when he went to Ibrox it was not dissimillar to a Nuremberg rally, not that he's especially pro Celtic. He said a lot of people in the rest of the UK haven't the faintest idea of some of the politics going on in Glasgow.

I'm now keeping a more guarded and more contextualised awareness of some of the stuff I read here.

I was quite surprised and taken aback; I thought such sectarianism only ocorred in Northern Ireland. But he told me Unionists in Glasgow are every bit as extremist as they are in NI.

Makes you think!!!

"I was quite surprised and taken aback; I thought such sectarianism only ocorred in Northern Ireland. But he told me Unionists in Glasgow are every bit as extremist as they are in NI."

The problem occurs because 'both' the Unionists 'and' the Republicans are every bit as extremist as they are in NI!

I knew there was a similar thing going on but I didn't realise just how right wing extremist some people are in Glasgow. Crikey my grandad supported the Gers and he was probably a naive old fashioned rightie, but there was never anything really nasty or vicious in his views that I could tell.

What is 'ibrox' and 'gers'?

Ibrox is like heaven for the righteous and Gers are the chosen people

Seriously, Glasgow Rangers are one of the two main football teams in the city and Ibrox is the name of the Stadium they play at. The other main team is Partick Thistle and I've heard tell of another team called Glasgow Celtic.

Rangers are historically Protestant and Celtic are historically Catholic. Both sides are trying to stamp out the bigotry of their more extremist fans.

Thanks SWL

SWL, how much of the Rangers/Celtic football rivalry is about religion and how much of the religious rivalry is about football? An expression I've heard is "Ninety Minute Bigot" - a Rangers or Celtic fan who'll sing really very nasty songs about Catholics or Protestents at a football match, but who doesn't hold those views outside football matches. Always been curious about this....

2nd attempt at this, it can be quite complex. Religion provides the base but the football keeps it going IMO. The West of Scotland is very sectarian. There are whole areas and certain pubs where you do not go if you're a member of the opposite camp. These areas provide the fanatical core of both supports. These fanatics *hate* each other with an intensity that is frightening. These people will never change.

The ninety minute bigots are something else. These people mix with each other during the week, form close friendships and outwardly everything seems fine, But come Derby day they join in the songs with equal fervour. I don't think they equate "wading knee-deep in Fenian blood" with Bill, their Catholic work-mate. It's an abstract - words chanted in tune without any real thought as to the meaning. On Monday morning, if you called them bigots, they would genuinely not have a clue what you're talking about and say that it's "only ra gemme pal".

I genuinely believe that if Celtic & Rangers were magically "disappeared" overnight, the sectarian divides would gradually fade. The football provides a focus and a driving energy for the whole mess, although I also feel seperate schools for Catholics & Protestants contribute to the problem.

It will take some time to read all the entries - but SWL is right. Politics and money have, throughout history, used religion to better their cause. Listen to the G Dubbya Shrub - Baloney Tare rhetoric.
But there is one chilling thing - a couple of years ago Washing-Powder Sharon was, inadvertently, recorded:
"Don't worry about America - we own America"
What is really going on and exactly who is pulling the strings. Baloney drops the BA investigation in fear of upsetting the keepers of the holy shrines.

I hate to say it, but I agree almost totally with SWL's description of sectarianism.


There's hope for you yet, big guy.

Anti-Semitism. It took some tracking down, but here is the full EU report on Anti-Semitism.

http://www.tenc.net/docs/euredata.htm

A paragraph which supports my assertions is:

"The CST counted 20 incidents of extreme violence (attacks potentially causing loss of life) and assaults during the first five months of 2002. Then perpetrators were described as follows: five white, five Arab, three Asian, seven unknown."

Feel free to peruse the report and find data that contradicts this.