h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

'they do their slaughtering in a building with no walls, so that everyone can see what happens.'

I'd forgotten that point.



I keep thinking about the article linked to in the original post. I feel quite sure that the people complaining about the halal chicken dinner were not at all concerned about how the chicken died.

That's the part that bugs me- the difference between halal and non halal seems so small (the article I read gave the impression that most halal butchers stun anyway, as it causes much less distress that way).

When people complain, how much do they really know?

"With respect,

Well I'll come back to this later SWL but lets lay bare all the other rubbish you put in post 20 first.


"it's this whole frickin' doing things for minority interests that's got us into the unholy mess we're in.

Oh the irony, if it were that we could do things in an "unholy" way we wouldnt be having this conversation would we? Anyway that could be taken as point scoring and Im all about point making which is different.


"Minorities have to abide by the wishes of the majority.

No we dont that is a very stupid thing to say minorities have to abide by the laws, laws made by Parliament and Judges (case law), voters only have a limited say in who gets to mke what laws. So while there is an influence it cant be said that there is a clear majority view being brougt to bare where laws are concerned. Moreover and much more importantly since Moseley and his "black shirts", through Enoch "rivers of blood" Powell and upto Nick Griffin in the present the majority of yhe voters of Britain have voted not for the parties of one country, ein volk.

So you are wrong when you say this:
"That's the way the system works. Until someone comes up with a better system, we're stuck with it.


"If someone desperately wants Halal or Kosher or Atkins Diet food, find a school where the majority of people want the same thing and have your needs catered to there.

Have you been into a school lately? Have you heard of Jamie Oliver? Have you pulled your nose out "Muslim Mpocolypse Monthly" lately in the past 25 years?

When I was going to school we had a range of food that catered to different tastes, cultures, religious requirements (pan cakes) and consciencious choices (eg veggie). I havent ever heard one person say the reason that the education system is in the state its in is because of the school meals policy? Maybe you do know better, but please explain how it *really* works because your laughable made up examples really dont cut the ice.


"The system isn't set up to cater to every whim of every individual."

Well done for noticing, but please explain who asked for it to be done this way. I have spcifically said "where reasonable" we should try to fit peoples needs in. I think its reasonable to provide salad for those who want it and chips for those who dont, wheres the huge, difficult or cost prohibitive leap in also providing ake for those who might want that?

"Providing 200 plates of grey slop to a school is the most efficient way of managing resources. Once you start insisting on 150 plates of grey, 25 plates of blue, 24 plates of yellow and one plate of green for the Vogon in the corner the system can't cope.

Rubbish utter rubbish. The system as someone who eats school meals roughly once or twice a week is coping. Sorry to expose your pathetic poorly thought out little lie but Im not given to being merciful no matter how ever feeble minded the argument is.

See what you are actually asking for here is a totalitarian dictatorial style of public service eat this or go hungry, "fit-in or fudge-off". As we already know the British people have never voted in anything near a majority for the "F-I F-O" system. We are a mostly easy going, pulralist bunch who want to be given some latitude and are willing to allow others some too, we mostly get along fine with diversity. We are not Stalinists and dont want to live that way. Its a great shame that you dont understand this.

"Suddenly you don't have enough money to pay for the extra staff and paperwork and you can only afford 180 plates of slop.

There are lots of people around here who show their ignorance on a range of subjects, myself included, but most show their indepth knowledge or expertise on some subjects. Economies of scale and catering arent yours are they.

"Similarly, when you start providing translated booklets in every language imaginable, you have £100 million taken out of the NHS kitty

Are these the real figures? Do we really have booklets in every language imaginable now? Havent you had enough of making stuff up yet? why dont you grow -up and attempt an adult conversation without the juvenile flights of horror-fantasy?

I'll give you a real example of diverstiy shall I?

Many years ago a feamale nurses uniform was set in stone. There was a major challenge made by a newly qualified nurse. She wanted to wear trousers either under her skirt or instead of it.

She wanted to do this because her adherence to the Muslim faith.

Now male nurses could wear them but she couldnt and some people made a big fuss about it, you can imgine cant you, SWL.

Well most sensible people are glad that British fair play won out eventually it was recognised that making a tiny change to allow her to contribute to the well being of the nation was the best thing to do.

Today nurses of all faiths make a choice about their uniform. My white, christian ex-girlfriend and community nurse wore nothing but tunic and trousers as her uniform and was very happy about it. Neither her nor the nurse the orignal case worked any less hard for her patients or employers simply because they werent in a skirt or dress.

The end.....



....of course that's not the end. Every single sore-headed racist and simple minded oaf with nothing better to bump their gums about will distort, lie and misinterpret anything they can to make something out of nothing...what a shame.


one love

Ahh, nearly forgeot the respect thing.

"With respect"
your usual argument that the majority are being undermined is totally without respect for the fact that an awful lot of people are not moronic half assed racists not taken in by the speil of Nick "muslims are ruing this country" Griffin.


"With respect"
Your paper thin lies and mindless exaggerations show no respect for other people who try to make thoughtful contributions.



"With respect"
Your near slanderous descriptions of whole swathes of people who have done nothing more than peacfully honoured a faith you dont happen like show no respect for many people who are noblely resisting pressures from within their resligious culture and from the moronic taunts of people like you to turn to millitancy.



"With respect"
Merry Christmas I do hope a dictionary was on your list for santa.

<<""Minorities have to abide by the wishes of the majority.

No we dont>>

Yes you do.

<>

Don't sell yourself short.

<>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6174303.stm

<>

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/09/muslims_can_wea_1.php


Run along now Blicky. Go and find a PS to cry on and make snide comments.

"you have £100 million taken out of the NHS kitty and suddenly we're closing hospitals, firing nurses and selling dialysis machines at the car boot sale.

"Local authorities spend £25m, NHS trusts £55m and the courts £31m on interpreting languages.

Cant you read or is it the maths that's hard for you. Or do you just lie to try to "win" some sort of game that exists only in your mind?

/http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/09/muslims_can_wea_1.php
Where is the change

I didnt know there were EVER any restrictions about what patients could wear in hospital. Is it unhygeinic? Why is it bothering you that other people have a choice and are exercising that choice?



"Run along now Blicky. Go and find a PS to cry on and make snide comments.

The badger doesnt run.

Sad little victim

Meanwhile, somewhere on planet considered argument....

Translations. Ideally everyone should learn English, but in the meantime, I don't see an alternative to paying for translations. In considering the cost of something, it's also worth considering the cost of not paying for it. What would the bill for mistakes be in health, the law, and in administration if there was no (or less) translation)? I don't know, but it's worth thinking about.

As FB said, living in a liberal democracy means a commitment to majority rule, and minority rights. That's 'minority' in the broadest sense of the word - not just ethnic, not just religious, not just in terms of sexuality, in terms of all minority views. A state without protection for minorities and without a private sphere where individuals can live their lives without interference from the state is totalitarian, whether it's ruled by a dictator or by the whim of the majority.

A country without minority rights is a country where anything can be banned at the whim of the majority. Doesn't that scare you, SWL? Because it frightens the hell out of me.

What's that in post 47?

Is it a snide comment?


Moving on....


We dont do what the majority wants in this country all the time. A legally and culturally significant proportion of the British people recognise that some freedoms are inalienable despite what some people might want, infact no matter how many other people want them to be taken away.

This is one of the few reasons I am and hopefully will remain happy to call myself British. Like I said earlier we are a mostly liberal people, we dont mind who people want to kiss and cuddle with as long as it is legally consensual, we dont care what type of religion or what colour football shirt our neighbours wear.

For instance we dont enforce religeon, the majority want the death penalty, but we dont have it as an option in courts, the majority would like a nice tax reduction for themselves but we all know that its the rich majoity who pay a realatively smaller and smaller amount each budget time.

Now these are my examples of how you are wrong about your we do what the majority wants. Do you have any conter points.

Yours faithfuly with no dilliberately skewed figures.

one love

About translations... There is no way on gods earth that the NHS can spend £55 million a year on translations without wasting a hell of a lot of money!


That sort of money buys you exclusive use (full-time) of around 500 freelance translators and a hundred or so 'professional-level' interpreters (I.e.: the guys that do simultaneous interpretation for the UN).

Now - given that there's no way they need to pay out for that grade of interpreter - and that 500 translators would be able to produce a translation of the entire 30-ish volume Britannica every month - I think they're either throwing a lot of money in the dustbin by getting the same document translated 50 times for 50 different hospitals or, they're paying _way_ over the odds for their interpreters.

Fair points to a degree Otto.

Translations in court are essential, in Hospital waiting rooms they're important, in Jobcentres they're irrelevant. Try getting help in a Jobcentre if you're dyslexic The advice given to dyslexics is to get a friend to help them. Why is it outlandish to expect the same of people who don't know the language?

It would be interesting to hear how ex-pat HooTooers from other parts of the world experience translation services in their adopted countries. Anecdotal evidence I've heard is that it's virtually non-existent. Maybe because some people feel it's not an unreasonable request to expect people to learn the language of the host culture.

Minority rights exist only with the consent of the majority. It may take decades of persuasion and argument, but the majority have to at least not be discomfited by minority rights. Witness gay rights. It took a long, long time to get where we are today.

Presumably a lot of the cost of interpreters is getting people to physically translate what someone is saying to Docs. This could presumably be theoretically in any one of a number of languages in any one of thousands if not tens of thousands of medical facilities across the ocuntry. This owuld presuambly have to be when needed and not during normal scheduled hours.

I reckon covering all that off could easily mean those sort of figures.

from SWL's second link:

'Muslim women booking into the hospital for operations can now respect their religion by wearing a burka-style gown. . .

Has Western society decided to abandon its own culture and values . . ?'



Having our butts hang out of hospital gowns is a part of Western culture and values I'm not particularly interested in defending.

And, of course, there's also that other bit of Western culture: let's make sure our chickens are slaughtered in the Western cultural way, by slitting their throats, and not that nasty Islamic way, by slitting their throats.

Well there are individual health authorities who do produce their own pamphlets about changes in service and things they are doing locally.

Lets not forget there will be printing costs too?

I dont know because Im not that hot or that interested if the cost of printing in foreign languages makes a net saving ie. the whole communites health benefits so that they have less need of more expensive services that theyd need if the didnt make use of the advice in the pamphlets

What I do know is that some of the literature translated is meant for internal use.

While most immigrant labour within the health service has a working knowledge of English, Im happier if someone who is using drugs or machinery on me can check instructions in the first language if they think they need to.

"It would be interesting to hear how ex-pat HooTooers from other parts of the world experience translation services in their adopted countries."

In France - if you want it - you pay for it... and the French government insist that you have certain documents (birth certificate etc.) translated by a limited number of 'accredited' translators - who cost twice as much as a standard translation service.

As for interpretation in hospitals... Given the quality of the guys I've seen translating, there's no way on gods earth they should be paying more than £20 an hour for them... so count the number of hours work that involves.

"Im happier if someone who is using drugs or machinery on me can check instructions in the first language if they think they need to"

That's not the responsibility of the health service though - that's the responsibility of the people making the drugs / machinery (it's what I do all day).

hyscience really seems like a trusted and impartial source to me. Especially when you look at the links and affiliates down the side.

>>Don't you think people have the right to be asked? Until you ask, you only have a vague idea who 'might' object.<<

It might be interesting to ask the majority of the British people if they would like our pluralistic, rich and proud culture to be dictated to be by a minority of narrow minded, right wing little Scotsmen, determined to turn us into a bland and mono cultural, uncreative stagnant backwater?

I believe they have an option every five years

Well I am sure the Far right will get as many seats as they did at the last election.