h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"With respect, it's this whole frickin' doing things for minority interests that's got us into the unholy mess we're in. Minorities have to abide by the wishes of the majority."


Totally missing the whole point of the basis of our political system. We live in a (nominally) "Liberal Democracy". The world Liberal qualifies the word Democracy. So rule of law, with protection for minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

This system was not thought up with "ethnically different migrant populations" in mind but rather to protect property rights. As democracy became more real those "with" were terrified of the prospect of having property taken from them so set up the system to protect their minority right to keep the lions share of the wealth.

There are loads of reasons why it owuld be bad if we just accepted the rule of the majority. Counter culture for a start. Anyone who lives a lifestyle "out of the ordinary".

The tyranny of the majority would be awful. Bear in mind "the majority" saw fit to keep the Crazy Frog at the top of the chartys and on the Radio for months.....

" Providing 200 plates of grey slop to a school is the most efficient way of managing resources. Once you start insisting on 150 plates of grey, 25 plates of blue, 24 plates of yellow and one plate of green for the Vogon in the corner the system can't cope"

Would the best way of acheiveing this not be to pick some "slop" that is suitable to everyone in the first place?

If there are only 5 people in the school who cannot eat anything orther than Halal meat, and no one else has a specific reason (otheer than not liking the thought of it) for not eating halal, why not cook using only halal. Problem solved, one meal that everyone can eat.

OK, let's put the slop argument to the test. Oh, we did. Without consulting anyone, Halal food was served to people without their knowledge. To satisfy the requirements of a minority, the majority were ignored.

What should happen in such a case is that everyone concerned should be asked first. If it transpires that the majority have no problem, great.

As a Union Rep, would you be happy to see working practices changed in a minor way to suit a few people - without consultation?

What happens if changes are mooted to take in to account 10% of people but 10% of the rest object? Which minority are you going to support?

Would you be offended if you found out you'd unwittingly been eating halal meat?

Nope - wouldn't get very far in France If I were... Plus - I happen to like Arabic cuisine

Why have I never had *jewish food* at school?

Probably because Kosher food requires not only particular slaughtering techniques, but also preparation and serving techniques that are virtually impossible for any school canteen to adhere to - so anyone wanting a kosher meal is likely to bring their own rather than risk the canteen food.

At what percentage level of the population should religions/cultures be seen as significant enough to warrant individual/spacial treatmentin the curriculum or school canteen?

No idea

Do you consider an occasional diversion fron your normal diet to be bending over backwards to accomodate other peoples faiths and cultures?

Heck - I'll try anything once - as long as it tastes ok I'll try it several times.

Fancy a brew?

At this time of day?... you can buy me a instead

"What should happen in such a case is that everyone concerned should be asked first. If it transpires that the majority have no problem, great."

Well presumable most catering establishments at schools who are going to providing meals for children *have* to find out in advance about "special dietary requirements" before they serve any children food. Would not do to give little Timmy with a nut allergy peanut surprise now would it? If 5 kids have said "only halal meat" and no one has said "no halal meat" it seems reasonable to me that a school would cook using only halal, unless it was more cost effective to cook two separate sets of meals.

"As a Union Rep, would you be happy to see working practices changed in a minor way to suit a few people - without consultation?"

In what way? I think you would have to be a bit more specific for me to give you an example.

But let me give you one. We have a thing in work called "term time working" which was secured by my Union. What it means is that people with dependant children at school can opt to only work during term time, but do so in a way that means they get a consistant monthly income, irrespective of when they dont work.

Many of the "majority" of people for whom this is not availible rail against this saying it is unfair. I disagree and am proud of the scheme and I always defend it.

It is my opinion that those in the majority who occupy a position of strength rarely need their interests defending, even if they convince themselves that they do.

Interesting that you imagine any questionnaire would include a "No Halal Meat" option. I wonder if this is actually the case. Call me a cynic, but I doubt it.

The 10%/which minority could be better phrased, I apologise.

With the Halal option, we are talking about people who want a certain style of food because of their beliefs. Is a belief that Halal is an unacceptable method of slaughter not equally valid? At the moment, most people here (myself included) do not have a problem with Halal meat, but I doubt that this is representative. I believe if the details of Halal slaughter techniques were more widely publicised, this nation of animal-lovers would throw up a sizeable percentage of people who do object. The compilers of school menus know this darned well and especially in the current political climate, they would be extremely loathe to offer a consultation exercise and would almost certainly not offer a "No Halal" option.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19950731_en_13.htm

I don't see anything there that says "Except Halal". Did I miss it?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmonthly/story/0,,1041058,00.html

An interesting article on halal slaughter. Now I just need to try to find something on non-halal slaughter too to balance myself out a little...

Right so it when weighing up some people who have a specific presciption against something against the possibility that some others *might* object to you should got with the might then?

Or does it only depend on whether the "might" or white?

Don't you think people have the right to be asked? Until you ask, you only have a vague idea who 'might' object. It's this kind of thinking that gives Right Wingers like me absolute gifts

The impression from the article was that the organisers didn't think that providing only halal would be a problem. They didn't think to ask because they didn't see it as an issue, rather only as a solution.

How do you rate each decision that a school board makes? Do you have a parents referendum on each policy change?
Shall we make a change in the school uniform?
Shall we change the length of lunch time?
Shall we serve halal meat so that the Muslim kids can take a part?

Much as I'd have been on the 'Give them a choice' side of the fence in this context, I'm sure there would be issues that I wouldn't give a second thought about that would offend others around me.

How do you rate each decision that a school board makes?
On a curved scale 0 - 100

Do you have a parents referendum on each policy change?
yes

Shall we make a change in the school uniform?
no

Shall we change the length of lunch time?
no

Shall we serve halal meat so that the Muslim kids can take a part?
maybe

Evening FB

<< Or does it only depend on whether the "might" or white?>>

Unworthy in my opinion FB. You are quick and willing to pick up on my errors of judgement or opinion, IMHO that was out of order......

SWL's point is valid. You cannot assume that the majority - who have rights too - might not object if you change something to suit a n minority without consultation.

Also , IMHO, your connection of democracy to the need for the rich to hang on to property is wildly out of kilter with 'our' perception of what democracy means.( and TB's version too , witness Iraq) iIt is a bit like assuming the navy still has wooden fighting ships as per Nelson.

Novo

Fair one.

Apologies SWL....

S'ok. I wasn't going to rise to it anyway

First off, no, I wouldn't be offended.

Second, I guess western Canada is quite different from Britain: every supermarket is packed with Kosher food and halal's not hard to find.

And, on the subject of slaughter methods, the story was about halal *chicken*: how, exactly, are non-halal chickens slaughtered in the UK? Do you humanely anesthesize them before you slit their throats and let them bleed out?

Sounds like a tempest in a teapot, frankly. Over on this side of the Atlantic, Fox News is screaming about the War on Christmas(tm), which is the most preposterous thing: Christianity has never been so strong in North America as it is now. Some Christians enjoy being martyrs I guess. (Between al-Qaeda and Fox News, Paradise is going to run out of virgins)

Yes it always amuses me when people suddenly come over all animal welfare about Halaal, and yet what goes on in the average industrial slaughter house in the UK is completely hidden from us. There was recently a programme on TV called River Cottage which took a group of people to a small scale, 'kinder type' slaughter house. There was a clear warning from the TV comapany before it was shown. They only televised the bare minimum.

So lets have it ALL out in the open please.

I think the more non traditional British type food in schools the better. My schooldays were made an utter misery with the tradional British pig swill we were served.

It's interesting to read 'The Omnivore's Dilemma' http://www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore.php in which Michael Pollan describes his working visit to the quite wonderful Polyface Farm http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

Pollan describes his time slaughtering chickens at this organic utopia: shove 'em upside down into a plastic cone with just their heads sticking out and slit their throats.

Customers pay a premium for these chickens. Hopefully they wouldn't object if Mr. Salatin, the fundamentalist Christian were Mr. Saladin slaughtering his chickens exactly the same way and calling it "Halal" instead of "environmentally, economically and emotionally enhancing pastured poultry".



tempest in a teapot.

River Cottage!! Now you are talking. Hugh Fearnly-Whittingstall (or other random big-name-man that I can't spell) is at least a TV chef who is honest about his food! If he wants a pork chop, then he darn well goes out and slaughters that pig and shows you exactly how he did it! May not be halal, but at least he's honest (and he's a man who likes to hang his game and other various animals to drain the blood for his fabulous sounding black pudding!) He does look at loads of traditional, 18/19th Century ways to keep, store, kill and present his food. Good man, Hugh!

Still never been convinced by his recipe for placenta pate though.....bit too 'earthy' for my liking!

Hugh Furly-Wurly I'm a fan too Also a fan of Michael Pollan, and of Polyface farm.

Fanny, you might be interested that another interesting thing about Polyface is that they do their slaughtering in a building with no walls, so that everyone can see what happens.