h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

But moving on:

Let's assume, for sake of argument and playing Devil's Avocado, that there is a problem with Muslims in Britain. What is to be done?

- Tell 'em not to move into areas where people have been living in the same house for 50 years? Where, then? Thames Gateway?
- Don't let 'em move into urban areas, but only into leafy suburbia or rural idylls? Hmmm. Kinds goes against market forces, no?
- Interfere in their religious and education so that they become better integrated. Actually...I somewhat favour this approach...but I can't see how it can be practically done without also impingeing on the religious freedom of non-Muslims, and that would be a minefield (see thread title). And singling out Muslims for special treatment would obviously be both hazardous and counter-productive.
- Send 'em back? I know which side of the barricades I'd be on there. (and by the way...it goes without saying that our economy would collapse.)

I'd like to make a modest proposal. What we have to understand is that we are irretrievably part of a multicultural society. Never mind how it came about. Never mind whether or not it's 'A Good Thing'. We have to accept it as fact. Given that - we have to learn to make it work -to accept, feel comfortable and even celebrate our new cultural diversity. It might not be easy. I can understand that the person living for 50 years in the same house will find it difficult to adjust. Luckily there are certain things we can do to mitigate any tensions. Like pouring money into education so that we grow knowlegeable, well-integrated citizens. Like ensuring equality of opportunity in employment. Like better management of our shambles of a housing market, including better urban planning, attention to transportation, public housing, etc. etc. so that we're not creating geographical apartheid. Like sustaining a healthy but well distributed economy to avoid tensions arising from disparities in wealth.

Pinko liberal stuff? Maybe. Does anyone have some better ideas they'd like to propose? Hey...maybe it sounds crazy...but it might just work.

Damn. In my last post but 1, I missed out:

SWL
>>Ed - I'm quite willing to stand corrected if statistics prove me wrong, but that doesn't change the perception does it? And, I am far from alone in having that perception.

What can I say? The Madness of Crowds. The pernicious myth-making of our media. Any rational person when presented with evidence which countermands their prejudicial perceptions must surely accept that they are wrong? Of course, the evidence is seldom presented. And some people are seemingly incapable of rationality

Morning Edward

Nice post, !

Not a bad analysis, in that you outline the situation the country faces,and some ways of looking at it. Constructive at least, and you will expect me to remark that 'positive discrimination and veils, are not particularly helpful.

If society is to be a melting pot, like a well constructed recipe, the ingredients need to be different, add something to the taste, but not be so different that any impart a distinct over-arching flavour.

Novo

Edward, the KKK comment was linked to the white Flight comment in another post, the impression that was given was that everyone who moved out was racist. Although it seemed to be ignored that if you was not white and moved in as other non white people were already there already it surley being the same thing in reverse.
.
Thankfully the attacking everyone for being racist for daring to talk about imigration (favoured by New Labour to stiffle the abuse of the asylum system a few years ago) is dieing out and a more balanced debate can take place without the slurs to stop it. I have seen something unthinkable even 5 years ago and that is Labour politicions actually saying that people in places like the thin white line have genuine concerns that their culture is being erroded and it is not racist to raise
the genuine concerns.
I also noticed a sea change with documentaries like the Last White Boy In School with the issue being focused on. What is also refreshing is that most of the documentaries on the subject and in in general TV interviews have been people from ethnic minorities showing understanding that for someone to be on the thin white line in an area where English is often not spoken, etc can make the people feel threatand, you can not underestimate just how important thing it is that people now feel someone is listening to their concerns and that they can raise these concerns without slurs of racism being thrown at them to make them be quiet.

Morning, all! Ed, Novo, SWLo,

Some really good posts this morning, and I'm way behind, owing to the time difference.

Novo: "have you started a reverse trend in order to counterbalance this undesirable practice.?" Actually, yes, this has been going on, and not with universally positive consequences, unfortunately. Sometimes known as the 're-gentrification' of urban areas. Whites begin moving back into inner city spaces, property values (and taxes) start going up to the point that those already living there can't afford to remain and are displaced, not necessarily for racist reasons, but simply because they can no longer afford to pay their taxes. Not good.

SWLo: I take your point about trying to compare US and British experience. I'm sure you're right about the situations being very different. I'm not sure how to address that. I only know my own experience.

Ed: "I'd like to make a modest proposal." If I knew how to make the smiley for "applause" you'd find it here! In fact, you might have been able to hear my applause if you'd been listening just then. Yes. May I quote you elsewhere? You express my thinking very well. I mentioned in a post yesterday that I'm guardedly optimistic that we're headed in a positive direction here, and that's because I see more and more evidence of people actually valuing and seeking out cultural diversity as a positive thing in its own right. As mentioned above, however, it's tricky to achieve racial balance even when everybody is trying to do so, and it's sometimes a matter of economics, which again has a racial aspect (whites here generally having higher income than non-whites. This is a gap we need to close if we seek a truly multicultural society).

I understand Novo's thought that immersion in diversity should be a matter of choice, but we live in a world that's constantly changing, whether we like it or not. Just as we can't choose the weather and have to make adjustments for it, so too, with things such as cultural diversity. We can choose to welcome it and make the best of it or try to fight it. I personally vote for the former option.

Enough ranting for now.

Well I have *some* sympathy with novo's point, to the extent that we can't legislate for sanity.

On the other hand, we do need to Stand Up And Be Counted sometimes. I think it's worthwile fostering an atmosphere in which it is clear that racism, no matter how tacit, is understood to be 'A Bad Thing.' This may well mean rubbing some people up the wrong way, and sometimes challenging them on some of their underlying assumptions.

For example, I *do* think that the immigration debate is larded with racism, and will continue to say so forcefully. Britain does not have a problem with racism, only with allocating resources (eg, housing, education) and adjusting our attitudes to accommodate the net immigration that we will need if our pensions are going to get paid.

(And, yes, while Labour were quite right to call the Tories on their racism, they are also ing hypocrites.)

Just catching up on a day's backlog... lots of interesting discussion.


>>
If society is to be a melting pot, like a well constructed recipe, the ingredients need to be different, add something to the taste, but not be so different that any impart a distinct over-arching flavour.
<< (novo)

Many people are agin the meltingpot idea. It tends to want to create homogenised culture rather than valuing diversity. And in white societies what it actually means is letting others have their culture on the side as long as everyone knows that white people are in charge and the non-whites behave like white people.

There is no reason that many cultures cannot exist alongside and within each other, allowing peoples their diversity. The things that stops this from working are fear, poverty, disenfranchisement, racism.

Amen! Well said!

Indeed, kea.

What if a white person like me doesn't like the dominant, indigenous culture that some want to be imposed? Culture's a multi-faceted compromise. Always has been. Get used to it.

Meanwhile...

From Jonathan Freedland in today's Grauniad:
"a climate is developing here and every time a politician raises a question that would, on its own and in the quiet of the seminar room, be legitimate for debate, they are adding to [violence]. They should feel shame for their reckless spraying of petrol on a growing blaze. Instead they applaud themselves, and are applauded in the press, for their bravery in daring to say what needs to be said."

Good article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1924677,00.html

Yes, the Freedland item is good. Well balanced. We could use more of this sort of input. Thanks for sharing it.

There's a phrase that I find very helpful: "One Human Family." I believe that if we could somehow truly internalize this notion ... that we really are all members of one huge, human family ... we'd begin looking at and treating all of our fellow humans more humanely. I further believe that we'll either all learn to live together or we'll all end up perishing together, especially as the technology of death continues to improve and become ever more widespread. To bring home the concept of one human family, it helps me to take an occasional look at the following photo: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060927.html

Peace, brothers and sisters.

"From Jonathan Freedland in today's Grauniad:
"a climate is developing here and every time a politician raises a question that would, on its own and in the quiet of the seminar room, be legitimate for debate, they are adding to [violence]. They should feel shame for their reckless spraying of petrol on a growing blaze. Instead they applaud themselves, and are applauded in the press, for their bravery in daring to say what needs to be said."

I'm sorry, but that beggars belief. Our politicians are elected to express the views of the electorate. If they feel they cannot express a view due to the fear that a tiny minority will react violently, they must be dispensed with and spokesmen found who do represent the majority view. The quote contradicts itself throughout by admitting that certain topics are "legitimate for debate" and "need to be said".

If the alternative to open government is a clear admission that certain topics may not even be discussed in public, we become a closed society and grievances will fester and grow. Why do you think we have reached the stage we are at today? Secret deals with minority groups behind closed doors that lead to disenfranchisement of the majority.

One quick addendum to my earlier post on One Human Family: try thinking of it in terms of enlightened self-interest!

SWL - he didn't say don't talk about it because of the reaction of a violent minority - he said the constant barrage of anti Muslim coverage was creating a climate for violent actions by the white majority - big difference.

sprout

Ah some Utopia where every one celebrates others culture.....the reality is for those on The Thin White Line is their culture vanishing, that is the trouble with getos the Utopian dream is lost in the reality of the situation of seeing everything familiar disappearing, great if you are part of the mono culture taking over, not so great if yours is the one disappearing.
Even new Labour seems to be finally admitting that multiculturism has not worked, what we have ended up with is groups seperating and the melting pot turning sour. There seems to finally be a realisation that pouring money into groups of this and that has ended up with those not thought to be in a minoritiy group feeling left out.....these are the words of one of Labour's ethnic minority MPs. More and more it seems to be ethnic minority MPs and other spokespeople who are saying this, unthinkable just a few few years ago.

I would venture to say the "barrage of Anti-Muslim coverage" has one source.

And it ain't mainstream society.

Who was it wearing a veil in a class?
Who has been plotting to kill with bombs and poisons?
Who was it wearing religious costume to school (which got dragged through the courts)?
Who was it smirking and joking about "10 minutes to live" on a airplane?
Who is demanding faith schools despite an appalling educational record with the ones they've got?

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the drift.

Instead of shooting the messenger, how about some straight talking to the group who commit the acts that make the headlines?

I find it somewhat amusing the constant attacking of white people in this country in some posts in this thread, when you think of other contries where other religeons are actually banned and then look at the wide range of religeons in this country from Muslim to Judaeism (sp?) all with their buildings thriving and other countries where to even talk about this would mean arrest, indeed people claim refuge here due to persecution in those countries, then compared to some countries this place is one hell of a lot better, but still we get attacked, I even visited one country where only the indiginous people were allowed jobs in the government by law.....perhaps a vist to a country like that might be an eye openner before attacking here.

A tiny minority SWL.

Recently some white BNP members were found with a load of explosives and weapons. Why didn't it make the mainstream papers?

Would it have done so had they been Muslim? I wonder...

1/3 of English schools are C of E faith schools - in some areas (like the village I have) that is all there is.

Did you take an equally strong line against the Irish community during the IRA attacks? Did you denounce the Soho nail bomber publicly? (he was a white heterosexual male - you're part of his community, using the same logic)

sprout

>>I'm sorry, but that beggars belief. Our politicians are elected to express the views of the electorate. If they feel they cannot express a view due to the fear that a tiny minority will react violently, they must be dispensed with and spokesmen found who do represent the majority view. The quote contradicts itself throughout by admitting that certain topics are "legitimate for debate" and "need to be said".

So it's legitimate to shout 'Fire' in a crowded theatre?

I think, SWL, that what you're after is what's called 'The Tyranny of the Majority.' Certainly that's a *form* of democracy, but one which had fatal consequences for much of the German population following their 1932 election. But if you look into constitutional matters a little deeper, you might understand why democracy requires certain checks and balances, beyond simple, knee-jerk populism. In our system, as I understand it, we (theoretically) elect people who we believe to be most capable of ensuring that the county is suitably run. Yes, in part we will expect them to represent our basic worldview, but inevitably we will differ on particulars. It's laughable, I agree...but we are placing our trust in them as persons more able than ourselves. As such, we should hold them to certain standards. Those standards include not voicing ill-thought comments that can be reliably predicted to stir up violence against our neighbours.

SS:

>>Ah some Utopia where every one celebrates others culture.....

Well, why not? Utopia, maybe. But we can at least aspire towards it, and maybe get halfway, if we're perpared to try. The community I lived in worked reasonably well.

...the reality is for those on The Thin White Line is their culture vanishing

And as JCN said, whose fault is that?

For heavens sake, even without immigration, cultures change. Good! Besides, racism isn't caused by the presence of people from other cultures. It's caused by racists.




More fundamentally, though...OK, so maybe I'm a blinkered, namby-pamby, pinko utopian. But repeating my earlier question:

What are we going to do about it?

I'll write it again, with more emphasis:

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

So far, I'm not hearing any positive suggestions. Just blame. Just entrenchment and fanning the flames. Would anyone like a go at suggesting some constructive moves towards a better society? Because frankly, fully accepting the right to free speech, I don't see how nagging the miniscule proportion of Muslim women who actually wear niqab is going to do tons of good.

SS:

>>I find it somewhat amusing the constant attacking of white people in this country in some posts in this thread

I challenge you to find a single example.